Authentic Learning
Abdullah Sujee
Deputy Principal
Roshnee Islamic School
P.O.Box 21313, Roshnee, 1936.
15 Babas Salaam St. Dadaville.
Tel. No. (016) 556-1146. Fax. No.: (016) 556-1177.
Email: abdullahsuje@telkomsa.net. OR abdullahsujee@hotmail.com
Abstract:
New technologies will not invalidate existing reasons for learning to read and write.
ÿ Reading gives access to knowledge, literary heritage, culture, individual expression and argument.
ÿ Writing enables groups and individuals to articulate and reform knowledge express themselves and develop arguments.
ÿ Literacy is necessary for effective functioning at work and in society.
ÿ Both reading and writing give pleasure and personal fulfilment.
Reading is informed by understanding where texts come from and who has written them, how they are made and why they are made. Writing their own texts helps learners to develop that understanding.
New technologies for reading and writing have extended the curriculum for English.
Students now need opportunities to understand:
ÿ how the use of word processors, spell checkers and thesauruses affects the processes involved in the different stages of composition and presentation of text;
ÿ how the research opportunities offered by CD-ROM and Internet-based services can be used to support the literature and language;
ÿ how the use of electronic sources of information can enhance the processes of comparison and synthesis of information drawn from different texts;
ÿ how the use of the Internet extends and changes possibilities for communication with, and publishing for, real audiences across the world.
ENGLISH FOR TOMORROW, SALLY TWEEDLE ET AL.
Therefore, Authentic Learning is the integration of real historical events in the teaching of English such that the classroom becomes the springboard to the world beyond it. In effect this diminishes the misnomer that the ‘real world’ is ‘outside’ the domain of the classroom or the school. WHEN WHAT WE TEACH IS NOT MADE AUTHENTIC THROUGH EXPERIENCE THEN, WE HAVE ONLY PASSED ON INFORMATION.
Keywords: Truth and Reconciliation Commission, Audio recordings, integrated computer technology, fast capitalism, world of the classroom, media integration, classroom a conduit to the world beyond it.
1. Introduction – Preamble
The dynamics of education has always been welded to politics in such a way that it channels the status quo in preparing the mindset of the masses. When the status quo is an acceptable type of democracy, it allows you to use the historical past as a means to establish a new future of possibilities. The education of the nation must not serve to overwhelm the historical past but, it must show how in an objective sense how the past made the future happen. Therefore, an education system that does not allow for this progression to develop will eventually become irrelevant because, education is the keystone to human progression from being uncivilised to being civilised.
– Abdullah Sujee.
Opening Remarks:
The notion of teaching literature beyond the scope of what the text presents is very difficult when we believe that literature is textually based and that its meaning and decoding is within itself. However, when we begin to establish the context that led to the actual writing of the novel, drama, short story or poem and the closest historical connection with it, the actual genre of literature study becomes alive and authentic. In effect, the extended notion that fiction is only based on ‘untrue’ issues can be viewed differently in that many fictional texts have some strong historical truths that inform the story line or, allow the writer to create a new thrill around an old event. Therefore, the paper explores authentic learning in a way where actual historical events can be part of the teaching of literature.
The Lesson idea
In my last paper, Teaching with Flair, I explored the idea of using an integrated workbook approach together with ICTs in teaching literature and found that it can be extended. In the teaching of Alan Paton’s Cry, The Beloved Country, I found that for many of the learners Apartheid seemed like a myth and in some cases a fictional event. Despite all the history that we see in South Africa about Apartheid – Robben Island, Aparthed Museum, the Sharpeville memorial precinct, Hector Peterson memorial to name but a few – the reality of it is far fetched for the pupils. Therefore, the historical Truth and Reconciliation Commission set up by Bishop Desmond Tutu gave me the idea of using that concept in a very different way to make apartheid ‘real’ for the learners so that they would be able to comprehend in more concrete ways what apartheid actually was.
Three months prior to starting the teaching of the novel, I introduced learners through the RCL and its Clubs and societies about the Apartheid activists in our locality of Roshnee and the Vaal. They were told that we would interview them and publish their ‘stories’ in our school’s newspaper and then do a full publication of all the stories in a book form. We would write to the TRC and inform them of our idea and hope that they will publish the book. At the same time I would begin pave the way of this idea with my learners in class i.e. the grade 10s. In effect, during their study of the play, Julius Caesar, and their completed audio assignment on the play, this idea was a challenge. However, all of them did not respond as that is life. Therefore, I began working with a core group of pupils mixed up of all grades with the bulk from grade 10.
The Ground Work
The learners were then introduced to the various activists in Roshnee against Apartheid and they began their first interview. It was deliberate plan that I did not make myself part of the interview but informed the activists about what was going down. The group of 12 at the time (Jan.07 – April 07) learners held their first interviews and that was all to put them on a roller-coaster. We then began making contact with the likes of Dr.Jassat who was prepared to get us to meet with Bishop Desmond Tutu and probably Mr.Mandela himself to bolster our efforts. We made contact with Mr.Firose Cachalia and his wife for interviews as well to further bolster our efforts. The hearings now got the name: “The Vaal Hearings”
The story on this is still been written…
The idea working in the classroom
The classroom must reflect the world beyond it because the classroom is the real world itself save that we have compartmentalised it into some kind of cartoon like world because, we continue to get the edge of our learners by telling them that ‘…wait till you get in the real world and then see…’Therefore, the idea in the classroom would work like this:
The video footage and audio recordings of all of the activists that we interviewed would be played in class when the introduction to Alan Paton’s context for writing the novel Cry, the Beloved Country. The activists themselves would be invited in person to actually tell the learners their experiences during apartheid to make the issues in the novel more real and authentic. These visits are planned and organised in such a way that they would come in class, tell their bit and would respond to a part of the novel i.e. for example when the issue of the Dompas (the ID type document that all blacks had to carry to avoid arrest). In this way the novel would become alive.
The context of the novel is made real and then the reality of the protest poetry that goes along with the context of the novel becomes more real and the learning is now definitely authentic. Furthermore, the activists would be asked about their future thoughts of South Africa and this again would tie in with the novel and its fictional ending yet, making the learners realise that the history is real and that is what informed the actual narrative.
Children of the South African Democratic era cannot fathom the human right violations of Apartheid – in the words of a grade 10 pupil, Fatima Khaki: “…for me Aparthied seemed like a figment of my imagination until I did the Vaal Hearings…reality hit me like thunderbolt…”
Progressing from the idea of audio productions (See Teaching with Flair document), pupils used this skill learnt in class to interview activists. Thereafter, a select group of pupils from within grade 10 and the Clubs and Societies would be selected to host my radio show on Cii – Educational Forum: 8-9pm CAT on Worldspace : http://www.channelislam.com/broadcasting/totunein.htm
During December 2007 and January 2008 they would host activists that were interviewed so that the idea and concept of the ‘Vaal Hearings’ become more concretised. This would make the idea world known thus, extending the boundaries of learning.
Development of the idea: Content, Community, Collaboration and Context.
1. Pupils were then introduced to Blogspots. They had to set up their own blogspot and amongst the various posts they had to make were that of their interview they did and the reflective essay based on the interview. Thereafter, we set up the blogspot for all the interviews we did. You will access it on http://vaalhearings.blogspot.com/
2. Collaboration with teachers from various parts of the world was made though email and the response was from Marsha Goren from Occupied Palestine. The pupils have made contact with her to establish how they can get in touch with holocaust survivors so as to make real their understanding of oppression.
3. Pupils were then requested to write book for gr.4 – 6 on the TRC using their interview ‘character’. The books are due in term 4 of 2007 and would then be given to the grade 4 – 6 teachers for actual use in their classes for feedback, evaluation and reviews. This will be prepare them for the final stage,
4. They will use the skill of the above and tweak it such that now they would be able to write a book on the Vaal Hearings and published it in 2008. The book will be a compilation of all the ‘hearings’ in an autobiographical style and would include a selection of pupils’ reflective essays to illustrate the lessons learnt.
5. In the meantime, collaboration with people who have come on board will be taken to the next level i.e. they should begin their blogspots where there will post their ‘interviews’ so that the process of awareness is made more real and global. This process we hope will be completed in June 2008.
The Idea related to CONTENT
The novel’s, Cry, the Beloved Country, content is very traditional save that they had to make that learning real. For example, they had to actually visit a township/shanty town, build models around it and do play & PowerPoint presentation on it. In effect, you see the novel’s themes come to life.
The above is scalable with any novel of social protest – think of how Orwell’s Animal Farm, or Dicken’s Tale of Two Cities or Steinbeck’s Grapes of Wrath can be used in the same grain to make the issues more real and ‘alive’! One needs to work at innovatively.
Pupils will enhance their creative writing skills. They will first write their own CHILDRENS book based on the TRC using their interviews. This will be a training phase in identifying audience and writing for them. In effect, this would prepare them to write the book on the Vaal Hearings that we intend to publish in 2008. The book will be for an adult audience and therefore, they would need to have more refined writing skills and would have to identify with audience more widely.
Two Pupils’ children’s books have been handed in as at 19 September 2007 while the balance will be handed in on 1 October 2007. A competition was held for the pupils i.e. the pupil that hands in the book by 19 September 2007 would receive a prize – an ICT prize (digital writing pad) and the second prize – an ICT prize : 1gig flash drive. It was an amazing day when the two pupils got their prizes.
The idea is such that pupils who you do teach can join the project through the existing clubs and societies in the school.
*****RESULT OF # 4
Attiyyah Saloojee of grade 11 – I do not teach her i.e. English. However, being involved in the RIS Independent Newspaper she became part of the project and used the project to enter the 17 TOP TEEN ACHIEVERS AWARD IN SOUTH AFRICA and she was one of 4 finalists as at 18 September 2007. In her words she said: “The idea of working with the ‘Vaal Hearings’ projected me onto a new level of thinking in that it made me work with people beyond my community. Furthermore, it has given me an edge over many when it comes to communication skills and language learning as a whole.” – 20 Sep. 07. In effect one sees how the classroom, the school and the world beyond it become conduits for holistic learning.
The Idea related to COMMUNITY:
1. The idea lent itself to pupils making inroads into the community (Roshnee) they are living in and communities beyond. They made contact with people they did not know. For example, they interviewed Mr.Baboo Kajee, a former MK (Military Wing of the ANC) member and many other such people.
2. They met people like Mrs Molema, the wife of the ANC Cadre, Cd. B.J.Molema. She lives in a small holding 15km away from Roshnee.
3. They met with people like Mr.Yunus Shaik and learnt how people from across SA became involved in the struggle against Apartheid.
4. The amazing thing was that many of these interviews were done at night – pupils and I travelled together to places and in many cases parents would take them for the interviews as well. This made parents connect with the pupils in ways that enriched their understanding of people as well.
5. Pupils are now more keen to know of other people doing other things in the community that changed history of the community.
6. # 5 above made me meet with Mr.Yunus Chamda – former Mayor of the Vaal and resident of Roshnee – he is keen on doing a history of Roshnee and he suggested that my pupils help him. When I talked to him about the Vaal Hearings i.e. after inviting him on board, he mentioned that the idea is a good one and that it can work.
The Idea related to COLLABORATION:
1. The idea allowed us to network. This networking extended beyond the boundaries of South Africa and it reached many people – however, we are still awaiting responses.
2. The following responses made the idea more concrete:
The Office of Bishop Desmond Tutu – it is clear that we would in the near future meet or have more contact with Bishop Tutu – see blogspot for the full reply from the Bishop’s Office.
The letter to the PA of Mr.Mandela, Mrs.Zelda Le Grange, is pending and Dr.Jassat, a former member of Parliament who works closely with Mr.Mandela, said that he would follow up on this correspondence.
The secretary of AMS (Association of Muslim Schools) has given us his support and got pupils to work on aspects of the idea – again see blogspot for detailed letter and reply.
Marsha Goren from Occupied Palestine is also willing to share ideas – two students will have started emailing her and to share ideas.
The idea is also expanding to communities like Sharpeville where the heart of the struggle began. Here we will be dedicating much of 2008 because it will be opportune in terms of our calendar of the school’s social outreach programme. The school we will be working with is L.Shandu. Correspondence sent on 20 Sep. 07. (See Memorandum of Understanding below)
We would also be extending our idea to the curator of the Sharpeville Memorial Precinct – this will be expanded in 2008.
We hope therefore, when we would work the Office of the Bishop from which we will source a FOREWARD to the book.
Progressing from the idea of audio productions (See Teaching with Flair document), pupils used this skill learnt in class to interview activists. Thereafter, a select group of pupils from within grade 10 and the Clubs and Societies would be selected to host my radio show on Cii – Educational Forum: 8-9pm CAT on Worldspace : http://www.channelislam.com/broadcasting/totunein.htm
During December 2007 and January 2008 they would host activists that were interviewed so that the idea and concept of the ‘Vaal Hearings’ become more concretised. This would make the idea world known thus, extending the boundaries of learning
Jeanette Le Fleur a student from the West Indies who is doing her masters in Education and focusing on ICTs in the teaching has been attending my classed for the 3 -4 weeks (July – September 2007) to gain insight into the use of ICTs in the classroom – see her attached letter that shows how this idea interests her as well and it lays the foundation for further collaboration.
The Idea related to CONTEXT:
Context for me is the environment of the school, the ethos of the school and the general socio-economic and political landscape of the community in which the school is situated. Therefore, it is important to take these aspects into account so that an idea like the one above can be ‘made’ relevant or it can fit well into the natural environment of the learners.
The school I teach in is a private institution that gets a minimal subsidy from the government and generally most pupils come from middle and upper middle class homes. There are many pupils who are fully sponsored and the school has a predominant staff of Muslim educators. All are not of Indian descent, some are white and black – from countries like Malawi and Somalia.
The pupils are predominantly Indian and some are Black.
I realised that the context of the school was such that many pupils whom I spoke to in class and through the Clubs and societies, feel that Apartheid and its effects have been and is been exaggerated. Therefore, it showed that the lessons they learn about Apartheid from the various sources has to be AUTHENTICATED thus, the title of my presentation: AUTHENTIC LEARNING came into being.
CONCLUDING REMARKS
The idea is very new and therefore there is room for extended progress and development. In effect, the work accomplished up to this point is a tremendous achievement. What has been my amazing experience is that the pupils in both the grade 10 classes and those involved in the project through the Clubs & Societies have shown made the comment that it was an amazing learning curve. It made them realise the world beyond the classroom and they have realised for themselves just how much opportunity exists in the world and what opportunities we can create for ourselves through such ventures.
In my view this whole idea has anchored the pupils’ school experience in the heart of the world beyond the classroom because now their learning has been authenticated by real life experience.
MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING
Between
ROSHNEE ISLAMIC SCHOOL
(Roshnee, Vereeniging)
and
L.SHANDU SECONDARY SCHOOL
(Sharpeville, Vereeniging)
Recognising:
That South African society has for decades been divided by unjust laws of racial separation and racial prejudice.
That these divisions, based on racial prejudice, has made South African educators, learners, parents and communities strangers to each other despite being one nation of people.
That the divisions of the past have created huge disparities in education and have deprived many of equal access to learning.
That conscious effort has to be made to forge new relationships and to cross the racial and economic divide that scars South African society.
That South Africa belongs to all who live in it, irrespective of race or colour.
Confirming:
That cooperation is established between our respective schools to address that which we recognise as listed above.
That exchange between our respective learners, educators, parents and the communities would foster better understanding and develop mutual respect and appreciation of our diversity.
That the areas of;
academic exchange for learners,
professional exchange for educators,
sports and cultural exchanges and
material support where needed,
be the focus of this cooperation.
Resolving:
That at the end of each year a schedule of defined projects be identified for completion during the following academic year.
That all projects are by mutual agreement, according to the needs and abilities of each partner in this cooperation, and not by demand or by expectation.
That the duration of this cooperation is by mutual consent as long as both partners consider it useful and rewarding, and that should either party wish to terminate this agreement, a simple indication to that effect by the Principals will suffice.
Concluding:
That this Memorandum of Understanding captures the aspirations of both of our schools, and its implementation gives expression to our desire to build our country into a thriving nation that offers quality lives for all its’ people.
Signed at………………………………………… on this the ………… day, of the month of……………………………………., at ……………………………………….
Signed:
……………………………………………………………………………………..
On behalf of ROSHNEE ISLAMIC SCHOOL
………………………………………………………………………………………
On behalf of L.SHANDU SECONDARY SCHOOL
**** Agreed in principle on 10 September 2007.
Copies of three books written for grade 4 – 7 on the TRC and the Vaal Hearings.
Below is the letter from Jeanette Le Fleur
Sunday, September 23, 2007
THE PAPER PRESENTATION ON THE PROJECT
Monday, September 17, 2007
REPLY FROM MARSHA GOREN - OCCUPIED PALESTINE
From: Marsha Goren [mailto:marsha@globaldreamers.org] Sent: 22 August 2007 9:23 PMTo: abdullahsuje@telkomsa.netSubject: Re: CALL FOR COLLABORATION
Hi Abdullah,
It is Marsha from Globaldreamers. If you remember I won the award for global collaboration. My kids are only in the 6th grade so the age difference is too large unfortunately. I do have a unit about the Holocaust on my site and there are stories of oppression and man in his darkest hour.
If you see anything please let me know. I was very impressed at the Microsoft Worldwide conference and enjoyed our group.
Wish you well,
Marsha
http://www.globaldreamers.org/holocaust
***NB: two pupils will be contact with her to get an interview with a Holocaust survivor so that that they can feel for real the terror of oppression.
Hi Abdullah,
It is Marsha from Globaldreamers. If you remember I won the award for global collaboration. My kids are only in the 6th grade so the age difference is too large unfortunately. I do have a unit about the Holocaust on my site and there are stories of oppression and man in his darkest hour.
If you see anything please let me know. I was very impressed at the Microsoft Worldwide conference and enjoyed our group.
Wish you well,
Marsha
http://www.globaldreamers.org/holocaust
***NB: two pupils will be contact with her to get an interview with a Holocaust survivor so that that they can feel for real the terror of oppression.
COPY OF EMAIL ADDRESSES SENT TO LIBERIA'S TRC
RE: NEED FOR COLLABORATION –
COPY OF EMAIL ADDRESSES I.E. LIBERIA TRC
CORRESPONDENCE SENT TO THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE
'jjverdier@trcofliberia.org'; 'Kkonneh@trcliberia.org'; 'Connie Conner (Riverside Info)'; 'Dolopei@trcofliberia.org'; 'Gerald.coleman@trcofliberia.org'; 'Mawashington@trcofliberia.org'; 'ousyllah@trcofliberia.org'; 'Bishopkula@trcofliberia.org'; 'Pearlbull@trcofliberia.org'; 'info@trcofliberia.org'
AWAITING REPLY….
COPY OF EMAIL ADDRESSES I.E. LIBERIA TRC
CORRESPONDENCE SENT TO THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE
'jjverdier@trcofliberia.org'; 'Kkonneh@trcliberia.org'; 'Connie Conner (Riverside Info)'; 'Dolopei@trcofliberia.org'; 'Gerald.coleman@trcofliberia.org'; 'Mawashington@trcofliberia.org'; 'ousyllah@trcofliberia.org'; 'Bishopkula@trcofliberia.org'; 'Pearlbull@trcofliberia.org'; 'info@trcofliberia.org'
AWAITING REPLY….
EMAIL SENT TO MR F RANDERA
Dear Dr Fazel Randera
As-salaamualykum. May the blessings of the Ramadhaan be upon you.
Your contact details have been passed on to me by Lavinia Browne (mpilo@iafrica.com). Please read the email I sent to people across the world including our former President, Mr.N.Mandela and the Bishop D.Tutu. I believe you can help us.
**** THE ATTACHMENT WAS THE SAME AS ALL LETTERS SENT TO PEOPLE.
As-salaamualykum. May the blessings of the Ramadhaan be upon you.
Your contact details have been passed on to me by Lavinia Browne (mpilo@iafrica.com). Please read the email I sent to people across the world including our former President, Mr.N.Mandela and the Bishop D.Tutu. I believe you can help us.
**** THE ATTACHMENT WAS THE SAME AS ALL LETTERS SENT TO PEOPLE.
FIRST REPLY FROM THE OFFICE OF BISHOP DESMOND TUTU
From: mpilo@iafrica.comTo: abdullahsujee@hotmail.comSubject: RE: CALL FOR COLLABORATIONDate: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:46:20 +0200
Dear Mr Sujee
In the absence of Archbishop Tutu I thank you for your letter.
Unfortunately it will not be possible for the Archbishop to meet with the pupils at RIS this year. He is overseas at present and will return to Cape Town for only one week in October. He does not have plans to be in the Johannesburg/Pretoria area again this year.
We wish the pupils well with this imaginative and important project.
Yours sincerely
Lavinia Browne
Personal Assistant to Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu
Dear Mr Sujee
In the absence of Archbishop Tutu I thank you for your letter.
Unfortunately it will not be possible for the Archbishop to meet with the pupils at RIS this year. He is overseas at present and will return to Cape Town for only one week in October. He does not have plans to be in the Johannesburg/Pretoria area again this year.
We wish the pupils well with this imaginative and important project.
Yours sincerely
Lavinia Browne
Personal Assistant to Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu
REPLY FROM THE OFFICE OF BISHOP DESMOND TUTU
RE: CALL FOR COLLABORATION
From: Lavinia Browne (mpilo@iafrica.com)
Sent:
17 September 2007 11:37:12 AM
To:
'Abdullah Sujee' (abdullahsujee@hotmail.com)
Dear Mr Sujee
I suggest you contact Dr Fazel Randera. He was a former Commissioner of the TRC. He is the only Commissioner in Johannesburg who is likely to help you. Judge Khampepe was also a Commissioner and in Jhb but I do not have an email address for her. Dr Randera is on frandera@bullion.org.za
You could also approach Thom Manthata at the Human Rights Commission. He was a Committee Member of the TRC.
Regards
Lavinia Browne
Personal Assistant to Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu
----------------------------------------------------------------
Postal address: Street address:
P O Box 1092 44 Frazzitta Business Park
Milnerton 7435 Koeberg Road, Milnerton 7441
Cape Town Cape Town
Tel: 0027 21 552 7524
Fax: 0027 21 552 7529
cell: 082 459 2731
mpilo@iafrica.com
From: Lavinia Browne (mpilo@iafrica.com)
Sent:
17 September 2007 11:37:12 AM
To:
'Abdullah Sujee' (abdullahsujee@hotmail.com)
Dear Mr Sujee
I suggest you contact Dr Fazel Randera. He was a former Commissioner of the TRC. He is the only Commissioner in Johannesburg who is likely to help you. Judge Khampepe was also a Commissioner and in Jhb but I do not have an email address for her. Dr Randera is on frandera@bullion.org.za
You could also approach Thom Manthata at the Human Rights Commission. He was a Committee Member of the TRC.
Regards
Lavinia Browne
Personal Assistant to Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu
----------------------------------------------------------------
Postal address: Street address:
P O Box 1092 44 Frazzitta Business Park
Milnerton 7435 Koeberg Road, Milnerton 7441
Cape Town Cape Town
Tel: 0027 21 552 7524
Fax: 0027 21 552 7529
cell: 082 459 2731
mpilo@iafrica.com
REPLY FROM AMS - ASSOCIATION OF MUSLIM SCHOOL
RE: INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE IN VAAL HEARINGS. State immediately that is collection of intyerviews with apartheid heroes (or fighters) . VAAL HEARINGS scared the daylights out of me. I didn’t want to read further.
1. Br Abdulluah, the issue is being clouded… don’t bring in the fund raising. It is irrelevant.
2. Get to the point. My pupils are running a newspaper…. They will do it as project for.
3. The students will be doing a.. b. and c.
4. This is how you can help.
5. Advise when it will be published.
6. Suddenly way below…. Afghanistan comes in… why is remotely related to the apartheid people.
7. I suggest a tidying up of sequence of events and words too.
8. People will get lost in the verbiage.
Sorry I am blunt… but it needs to be said
ASSOCIATION OF MUSLIM SCHOOLS
RASHID CHOPDAT
Cell: 084 251 0623 - Cell Fax: 084 252 6487
Tel/Fax: 011 942 1283 - e-Mail rc@efunda.co.za
1. Br Abdulluah, the issue is being clouded… don’t bring in the fund raising. It is irrelevant.
2. Get to the point. My pupils are running a newspaper…. They will do it as project for.
3. The students will be doing a.. b. and c.
4. This is how you can help.
5. Advise when it will be published.
6. Suddenly way below…. Afghanistan comes in… why is remotely related to the apartheid people.
7. I suggest a tidying up of sequence of events and words too.
8. People will get lost in the verbiage.
Sorry I am blunt… but it needs to be said
ASSOCIATION OF MUSLIM SCHOOLS
RASHID CHOPDAT
Cell: 084 251 0623 - Cell Fax: 084 252 6487
Tel/Fax: 011 942 1283 - e-Mail rc@efunda.co.za
LETTER TO THE OFFICE OF BISHOP DESMOND TUTU
facsimile transmittal sheet
to:
THE ARCH BISHOP: MR.DESMOnD TUTU
from:
Mr.A.Sujee
SCHOOL:
date:
17 september 2007
fax number:
total no. of pages including cover:
011 838 2408
Phone number:
sender’s reference number:
Re:
Your reference number:
Tribute to your example & meeting with you.
Urgent For Review Please Comment √ Please Reply ASAP.
As-salaamualykum Peace be upon you– May this correspondence find you in good health, perfect faith and love for humanity.
I was inspired by Bishop’s work on the TRC and it spurred me on to illustrate the example with learners from grade 10 because for many of them Apartheid seems a figment of their imagination. Therefore, I attempted to make it ‘real’ for them by introducing the ‘Vaal Hearings.’
Over the past six months dedicated pupils of Roshnee Islamic School have been interviewing Apartheid Activists especially those activists whose stories were not told to the TRC. We have, to date, interviewed more than 15 activists, published a feature article in the School’s newspaper, posted the stories on the pupils’ blogspots, in the process of setting a dedicated blogspot for these ‘hearings’ and we have sent letters seeking collaboration from teachers across the globe. Therefore, we would like to meet you, Bishop Desmond Tutu. You have inspired us to be a ‘Rabble-Rouser’ in that we have learnt how to unearth the truth so that freedom can prevail.
Dr.Jassat, whom we interviewed, gave us your contact details and said that we should pursue it because it encourages nation building.
Our group consists of pupils who actually went out in search for stories and documented it and a core group of pupils who began this process.
Attached herewith is the template that the pupils used to do their ‘hearings’.
I hope that we can meet in the very near future to discuss how we can take this idea to a new level. Therefore, we believe that meeting with Mr.Mandela, we would be inspiring the world’s youth toward world peace.
Thank you for the time, effort and consideration you will give this matter.
Sincerely,
Mr.A.Sujee
Deputy Headmaster.
NB: There is a problem with our email address therefore forward email to: abdullahsujee@hotmail.com
RE: INVITATION TO PARTICPATE IN VAAL HEARINGS.
It is our pleasure in sharing our idea with you hoping that you will assist us in getting in touch with people who were activists or, with people who wish to share their experiences of Apartheid with us. We are the grade 10 pupils of RIS and a dedicated team of aspiring students who are part of the RIS Independent – the newspaper that your company advertised in. Please read the details below and should it interest you, please contact me. You do have my cell number.
The Independent always aims to emit the best for that which it serves and therefore we have decided to assist the Representative Council of Learners (RCL) of the Roshnee Islamic School in raising money for their needs at the same time using the opportunity to satisfy ours. This is a win-win situation for both organisations!
The Independent plans to have a fund raising dinner where we would have the Apartheid activists (comrades) as delegates as well as clerics, to share with us their views and insight on the past and the future of this fare land. The event will be hosted at a venue which is well accommodated for, with seats at sale subject to availability. Special invitations would be given to honourable Bishop of the TRC, Mr. Nelson Mandela and others unspoken heroes of the past from all racial backgrounds.
Aim:
The aim of The Independent is to put together a book which includes stories and interviews of activists (comrades) during the Apartheid-era. The book which would be compiled will be a legacy, so that the rich pieces of history involving the struggle within our communities are not lost, but rather preserved. The Vaal Triangle holds great prestige in the fight for democracy as places such as Vereeniging witnessed many historical events. The simple reasons for such a venture is to inevitably create awareness amongst those who were not present at that time, as the efforts of the many men and women who fought for what they believed in, makes living in a democratic society reality today. The shackles of Apartheid may have been broken but recognition and gratitude has to be given to the many unspoken heroes.
Goals
The Independent strongly believes in youth leadership and this is how we aim to make a difference for the people who sacrificed their time, wealth, blood, family, dignity and lives for this fair land. We feel that the struggle of the past seems to be fading with every passing day as the ignorance we show towards the struggle can only be as a result of the lack of which remains of it. We don’t wish to relive the sorrow and despicable nature of our history rather we are inspired to capture the best of it in our book, so that it can be a source of reflection for the generations down the line; when nothing of Apartheid will be found but the words and the memories of the many people whose voices will be heard in the Vaal Hearings.
It is with this that we The Independent, together with your assistance, can make the past not just ‘time gone by’ but rather a means of emulating the cliché “those who win the war, write the history”. The Vaal Hearings is the struggle of youth in memory of June the 16th 1976.
POINTS OF IMPORTANCE:
You must get the person’s name correct and a brief biographical data.
You must ensure proper protocol when you set up the interview with the person. Please be mindful of time and personal commitments of the person concerned.
Do not come across as rude or ‘pushy’ i.e. be polite.
Request if a photo can be taken or, if a DVD recording can be done and or, if the interview can be recorded on a audio appliance e.g. MP3, Cassette etc.
Ensure that all the information is gathered properly and then to writing of the transcript – save it on a flash drive and submit it to Mr.A.Sujee.
Plan of Action:
In January 2007 until June 2007 members of the RIS Independent will conduct interviews with members of the community and outlying communities – they will conduct at least 5 interviews and create awareness. The RIS Independent will have a feature article on the Vaal Hearings in the first publication of 2007.
Thereafter, the grade 10s who are being taught Cry, the Beloved Country, will continue the ‘hearings’ as part of their literature study.
In essence what you see evolve is the 3 Cs:
1. Content: you are covering the school work in a more creative and dynamic way.
2. Community: You are taking the lessons of the classroom and making it part of the community you are living in therefore, establishing bonds of understanding between you and the members of the community.
3. Collaboration: you will learn how to network with people beyond your social, economic and cultural domain and eventually establish new found friends.
In the third and fourth term of 2007 we would then ‘translate’ your stories into narratives i.e. you will write a narrative on the person’s story. The evidence you will have will allow you to write a narrative with great truth. Once we have that we hope to publish the stories in a book form. It seems very likely that we would publish the book in January 2008.
In January 2008 we would start collaborating with teachers in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and other places and showcase our idea to them i.e. encourage them to get pupils to record the lives of those who fought against or experienced oppression or, has an interesting story to tell about oppressive regimes. It will be interesting to see how one will get a view on terrorism and terrorist states.
In 2008 we hope to have books published in various countries of the world. This is not our duty to see the actual printing of the books, but we will witness the process occurring. We would have to form links to see this happening. So you need to start making contacts with people in the countries above so that we can start the process in January 2008.
If you start the process of collaboration with other countries please inform me so that we can mail this memorandum to them. Once we have the contacts, we would set up our mailing list on the internet.
Here are some guideline questions that you can ask the people who were activists or, who you identified as having a real story to tell about the Apartheid era.
Tell us something about yourself – your childhood and how you got involved in politics or political resistance.
What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an apartheid activist?
Did you ever have a run in with the law at the time?
What was your attitude like towards policies after those run-ins or bad experiences?
Do you still have contact with any of your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?
Were you ever arrested or detained? Describe your experience?
Were you an MK (Imkonto-we-sizwe) i.e. a member of the Military wing of the ANC at the time? Describe your experiences.
Did you feel the efforts of your struggle were in vain?
How did you feel about those in power at the time i.e. what did you think of white supremacy at the time?
How did you react to the many different laws e.g. the pass law, group areas act etc?
Did you ever hear or see a neck lacing i.e. those people who spied for the Apartheid state were burnt alive by a tyre place over them?
What message would like to share with the people of South Africa today?
We don’t see i.e. in our community of Roshnee, Indians and Muslims in particular involved in politics and the civil service as they should be. Therefore, what are your feelings about this and is there any advice you would like to share regarding this. *** Depending on who you interview – do change the phrasing of the question or leave it out if it is not appropriate.
Finally – are you hopeful of South Africa today?
Please visit our dedicated blogspot: http://vaalhearings.blogspot.com/
Thank you for the time, effort and consideration you will give this matter.
.
Yours sincerely,
Mr.A.Sujee.
Deputy Headmaster
to:
THE ARCH BISHOP: MR.DESMOnD TUTU
from:
Mr.A.Sujee
SCHOOL:
date:
17 september 2007
fax number:
total no. of pages including cover:
011 838 2408
Phone number:
sender’s reference number:
Re:
Your reference number:
Tribute to your example & meeting with you.
Urgent For Review Please Comment √ Please Reply ASAP.
As-salaamualykum Peace be upon you– May this correspondence find you in good health, perfect faith and love for humanity.
I was inspired by Bishop’s work on the TRC and it spurred me on to illustrate the example with learners from grade 10 because for many of them Apartheid seems a figment of their imagination. Therefore, I attempted to make it ‘real’ for them by introducing the ‘Vaal Hearings.’
Over the past six months dedicated pupils of Roshnee Islamic School have been interviewing Apartheid Activists especially those activists whose stories were not told to the TRC. We have, to date, interviewed more than 15 activists, published a feature article in the School’s newspaper, posted the stories on the pupils’ blogspots, in the process of setting a dedicated blogspot for these ‘hearings’ and we have sent letters seeking collaboration from teachers across the globe. Therefore, we would like to meet you, Bishop Desmond Tutu. You have inspired us to be a ‘Rabble-Rouser’ in that we have learnt how to unearth the truth so that freedom can prevail.
Dr.Jassat, whom we interviewed, gave us your contact details and said that we should pursue it because it encourages nation building.
Our group consists of pupils who actually went out in search for stories and documented it and a core group of pupils who began this process.
Attached herewith is the template that the pupils used to do their ‘hearings’.
I hope that we can meet in the very near future to discuss how we can take this idea to a new level. Therefore, we believe that meeting with Mr.Mandela, we would be inspiring the world’s youth toward world peace.
Thank you for the time, effort and consideration you will give this matter.
Sincerely,
Mr.A.Sujee
Deputy Headmaster.
NB: There is a problem with our email address therefore forward email to: abdullahsujee@hotmail.com
RE: INVITATION TO PARTICPATE IN VAAL HEARINGS.
It is our pleasure in sharing our idea with you hoping that you will assist us in getting in touch with people who were activists or, with people who wish to share their experiences of Apartheid with us. We are the grade 10 pupils of RIS and a dedicated team of aspiring students who are part of the RIS Independent – the newspaper that your company advertised in. Please read the details below and should it interest you, please contact me. You do have my cell number.
The Independent always aims to emit the best for that which it serves and therefore we have decided to assist the Representative Council of Learners (RCL) of the Roshnee Islamic School in raising money for their needs at the same time using the opportunity to satisfy ours. This is a win-win situation for both organisations!
The Independent plans to have a fund raising dinner where we would have the Apartheid activists (comrades) as delegates as well as clerics, to share with us their views and insight on the past and the future of this fare land. The event will be hosted at a venue which is well accommodated for, with seats at sale subject to availability. Special invitations would be given to honourable Bishop of the TRC, Mr. Nelson Mandela and others unspoken heroes of the past from all racial backgrounds.
Aim:
The aim of The Independent is to put together a book which includes stories and interviews of activists (comrades) during the Apartheid-era. The book which would be compiled will be a legacy, so that the rich pieces of history involving the struggle within our communities are not lost, but rather preserved. The Vaal Triangle holds great prestige in the fight for democracy as places such as Vereeniging witnessed many historical events. The simple reasons for such a venture is to inevitably create awareness amongst those who were not present at that time, as the efforts of the many men and women who fought for what they believed in, makes living in a democratic society reality today. The shackles of Apartheid may have been broken but recognition and gratitude has to be given to the many unspoken heroes.
Goals
The Independent strongly believes in youth leadership and this is how we aim to make a difference for the people who sacrificed their time, wealth, blood, family, dignity and lives for this fair land. We feel that the struggle of the past seems to be fading with every passing day as the ignorance we show towards the struggle can only be as a result of the lack of which remains of it. We don’t wish to relive the sorrow and despicable nature of our history rather we are inspired to capture the best of it in our book, so that it can be a source of reflection for the generations down the line; when nothing of Apartheid will be found but the words and the memories of the many people whose voices will be heard in the Vaal Hearings.
It is with this that we The Independent, together with your assistance, can make the past not just ‘time gone by’ but rather a means of emulating the cliché “those who win the war, write the history”. The Vaal Hearings is the struggle of youth in memory of June the 16th 1976.
POINTS OF IMPORTANCE:
You must get the person’s name correct and a brief biographical data.
You must ensure proper protocol when you set up the interview with the person. Please be mindful of time and personal commitments of the person concerned.
Do not come across as rude or ‘pushy’ i.e. be polite.
Request if a photo can be taken or, if a DVD recording can be done and or, if the interview can be recorded on a audio appliance e.g. MP3, Cassette etc.
Ensure that all the information is gathered properly and then to writing of the transcript – save it on a flash drive and submit it to Mr.A.Sujee.
Plan of Action:
In January 2007 until June 2007 members of the RIS Independent will conduct interviews with members of the community and outlying communities – they will conduct at least 5 interviews and create awareness. The RIS Independent will have a feature article on the Vaal Hearings in the first publication of 2007.
Thereafter, the grade 10s who are being taught Cry, the Beloved Country, will continue the ‘hearings’ as part of their literature study.
In essence what you see evolve is the 3 Cs:
1. Content: you are covering the school work in a more creative and dynamic way.
2. Community: You are taking the lessons of the classroom and making it part of the community you are living in therefore, establishing bonds of understanding between you and the members of the community.
3. Collaboration: you will learn how to network with people beyond your social, economic and cultural domain and eventually establish new found friends.
In the third and fourth term of 2007 we would then ‘translate’ your stories into narratives i.e. you will write a narrative on the person’s story. The evidence you will have will allow you to write a narrative with great truth. Once we have that we hope to publish the stories in a book form. It seems very likely that we would publish the book in January 2008.
In January 2008 we would start collaborating with teachers in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and other places and showcase our idea to them i.e. encourage them to get pupils to record the lives of those who fought against or experienced oppression or, has an interesting story to tell about oppressive regimes. It will be interesting to see how one will get a view on terrorism and terrorist states.
In 2008 we hope to have books published in various countries of the world. This is not our duty to see the actual printing of the books, but we will witness the process occurring. We would have to form links to see this happening. So you need to start making contacts with people in the countries above so that we can start the process in January 2008.
If you start the process of collaboration with other countries please inform me so that we can mail this memorandum to them. Once we have the contacts, we would set up our mailing list on the internet.
Here are some guideline questions that you can ask the people who were activists or, who you identified as having a real story to tell about the Apartheid era.
Tell us something about yourself – your childhood and how you got involved in politics or political resistance.
What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an apartheid activist?
Did you ever have a run in with the law at the time?
What was your attitude like towards policies after those run-ins or bad experiences?
Do you still have contact with any of your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?
Were you ever arrested or detained? Describe your experience?
Were you an MK (Imkonto-we-sizwe) i.e. a member of the Military wing of the ANC at the time? Describe your experiences.
Did you feel the efforts of your struggle were in vain?
How did you feel about those in power at the time i.e. what did you think of white supremacy at the time?
How did you react to the many different laws e.g. the pass law, group areas act etc?
Did you ever hear or see a neck lacing i.e. those people who spied for the Apartheid state were burnt alive by a tyre place over them?
What message would like to share with the people of South Africa today?
We don’t see i.e. in our community of Roshnee, Indians and Muslims in particular involved in politics and the civil service as they should be. Therefore, what are your feelings about this and is there any advice you would like to share regarding this. *** Depending on who you interview – do change the phrasing of the question or leave it out if it is not appropriate.
Finally – are you hopeful of South Africa today?
Please visit our dedicated blogspot: http://vaalhearings.blogspot.com/
Thank you for the time, effort and consideration you will give this matter.
.
Yours sincerely,
Mr.A.Sujee.
Deputy Headmaster
Monday, September 10, 2007
MISSION AND VISION STATEMENTS
VAAL HEARINGS
Mission
Our aim is dedicated to ensuring that all South Africans be educated to the highest possible standard on what Apartheid was so that we, the youth of today, DO NOT become the OPPRESSORS of tomorrow.
Vision
To showcase the truth as the beacon of hope for people to recognise Allah as the Supreme Being worthy of worship through the divine injunction of seeking knowledge because, religion is advice, knowledge is light and ignorance is darkness.
Mission
Our aim is dedicated to ensuring that all South Africans be educated to the highest possible standard on what Apartheid was so that we, the youth of today, DO NOT become the OPPRESSORS of tomorrow.
Vision
To showcase the truth as the beacon of hope for people to recognise Allah as the Supreme Being worthy of worship through the divine injunction of seeking knowledge because, religion is advice, knowledge is light and ignorance is darkness.
MASTER LETTER THAT WAS SENT TO ACTIVISTS
9 February 2007
As-salaamualykum (Peace be upon you)
Dear Sir/Madam
May this letter find you in good health and perfect iman.
RE: AN INNOVATIVE IDEA – REQUEST FOR YOUR SUPPORT.
The Youth Leadership Forum of our School has embarked on the idea of having to establish a forum for apartheid activists of the Greater Vaal Area. The Forum would be called: “The Vaal Hearings” which we hope to publish in a book together with snippet articles in our School’s newspaper called : The Independent.
We do know that you have been involved in the struggle and that you still know some comrades who have not told their story. Therefore, we would like to document these stories before they become myth or town legends.
We have set up basic structures like writing the mission and vision of the project, the basic questionnaire that we can use as a template, the pupils who will conduct the interviews and the way we would organise a fund raising dinner where our comrades would tell their story. This we believe will keep the flames of struggle known to many people. The intention is to invite the honourable Bishop of the TRC, Mr.Desmod Tutu and others.
We would like to get your story as well and your valuable help.
Thank you for the time, effort and consideration you will give this matter.
Shukran,
Mr.A.Sujee
DeputyPrincipal.
Please email to: abdullahsujee@hotmail.com
As-salaamualykum (Peace be upon you)
Dear Sir/Madam
May this letter find you in good health and perfect iman.
RE: AN INNOVATIVE IDEA – REQUEST FOR YOUR SUPPORT.
The Youth Leadership Forum of our School has embarked on the idea of having to establish a forum for apartheid activists of the Greater Vaal Area. The Forum would be called: “The Vaal Hearings” which we hope to publish in a book together with snippet articles in our School’s newspaper called : The Independent.
We do know that you have been involved in the struggle and that you still know some comrades who have not told their story. Therefore, we would like to document these stories before they become myth or town legends.
We have set up basic structures like writing the mission and vision of the project, the basic questionnaire that we can use as a template, the pupils who will conduct the interviews and the way we would organise a fund raising dinner where our comrades would tell their story. This we believe will keep the flames of struggle known to many people. The intention is to invite the honourable Bishop of the TRC, Mr.Desmod Tutu and others.
We would like to get your story as well and your valuable help.
Thank you for the time, effort and consideration you will give this matter.
Shukran,
Mr.A.Sujee
DeputyPrincipal.
Please email to: abdullahsujee@hotmail.com
INTERVIEW WITH MRS SAKINA PATEL by Waseem Patel
Vaal Hearings
Assalaam-u-alaikum. Today I will be doing an interview with Mrs. Sakina Patel and she will be telling us more on here experiences during the apartheid times in South Africa.
Waseem: Tell us something about your youth and how it was during the apartheid times
Sakina: I was born in 1934 and brought up in Everton. I went to a school which thought till standard 6. Unfortunately there was no higher education at that time for Indians so I left school at the age of 13.
Waseem: At what period did you become politically active?Sakina: I came from a politically involvedfamily. My brother Kassim was involved in the Youth League. Also, my eldest brother was involved in the ANC. I took an interest to what they were doing. At the age of 18, we girls were approached and asked to join the defiance campaign, which we did. We took part in marches. Once we went into the locations and defied the permit law and we were arrested.
Waseem: For how long were you in jail?
Sakina: We slept the night and the next day we were taken to court and we were sentenced to 14 days in prison which we served. My sister Mariam Jada also served it with me
Waseem: What was your attitude towards policies after being in jail?
Sakina: I didn’t regret it for one moment.It was our duty as citizens of South Africa as we also desired freedom
Waseem: What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an activist?
Sakina: It was the time I was arrested but I recall a march in Everton at which they (the whites) came with light aeroplanes and guns.They flew low to try and scare us and I thought they would open fire on us.
Waseem: Did you feel your efforts were in vain?
Sakina: No, there was always a hope and feeling that we would get freedom although there were many rough times which we went through.
Waseem: Do you still have contact with any of your fellow activists that may be in yhe government and do you still keep in touch with them?
Sakina: I have occasional contact with members of the ANC. People like Mozzie Moola and Ahmed Kathrada.
Waseem: What message would you like to share with the youth of South Africa today?
Sakina: The youth should use the opportunities they have which we didn’t have in those days and should be grateful of all the people who fought for the freedom of this country by offering their lives,wealth and family
Waseem:Finally- are you hopeful of South Africa today?
Sakina: Yes, we are gradually growing and if the crime can stop, this could be a great future ahead.
Assalaam-u-alaikum. Today I will be doing an interview with Mrs. Sakina Patel and she will be telling us more on here experiences during the apartheid times in South Africa.
Waseem: Tell us something about your youth and how it was during the apartheid times
Sakina: I was born in 1934 and brought up in Everton. I went to a school which thought till standard 6. Unfortunately there was no higher education at that time for Indians so I left school at the age of 13.
Waseem: At what period did you become politically active?Sakina: I came from a politically involvedfamily. My brother Kassim was involved in the Youth League. Also, my eldest brother was involved in the ANC. I took an interest to what they were doing. At the age of 18, we girls were approached and asked to join the defiance campaign, which we did. We took part in marches. Once we went into the locations and defied the permit law and we were arrested.
Waseem: For how long were you in jail?
Sakina: We slept the night and the next day we were taken to court and we were sentenced to 14 days in prison which we served. My sister Mariam Jada also served it with me
Waseem: What was your attitude towards policies after being in jail?
Sakina: I didn’t regret it for one moment.It was our duty as citizens of South Africa as we also desired freedom
Waseem: What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an activist?
Sakina: It was the time I was arrested but I recall a march in Everton at which they (the whites) came with light aeroplanes and guns.They flew low to try and scare us and I thought they would open fire on us.
Waseem: Did you feel your efforts were in vain?
Sakina: No, there was always a hope and feeling that we would get freedom although there were many rough times which we went through.
Waseem: Do you still have contact with any of your fellow activists that may be in yhe government and do you still keep in touch with them?
Sakina: I have occasional contact with members of the ANC. People like Mozzie Moola and Ahmed Kathrada.
Waseem: What message would you like to share with the youth of South Africa today?
Sakina: The youth should use the opportunities they have which we didn’t have in those days and should be grateful of all the people who fought for the freedom of this country by offering their lives,wealth and family
Waseem:Finally- are you hopeful of South Africa today?
Sakina: Yes, we are gradually growing and if the crime can stop, this could be a great future ahead.
Transcript: Mr. Goolam Hoosen Kolia Interviewed by Zakiyyah Kolia
Biographical Data:
Name: Goolam Hoosen
Surname: Kolia
Date of Birth: 18 March 1950
Age: 57
Address: 7993 Capricorn Ave
Lenasia
Ext 9
Telephone No: (011) 8542394
Cell Phone No: 084 4977789
E-mail Address: koliagh@hotmail.com
Qualifications: Matric
Occupation: Accountant
Organization Involvement: SAHUC
Device used: Cell phone
ZK: Assalamualaykum…this is Zakiyyah Kolia…I am interviewing Mr. Goolam Hoosen Kolia who is going to tell us about the apartheid era.
Tell us something about yourself – your childhood and how you got involved in politics or political resistance.
GHK: …I was born in Klip town and…we used to live near squatter camps and our homes were not that elaborate, it was just the basic brick structure and…I remember we were not very well off but we used to play bare feet and you know in the rain and all that so it was quite fun during that time…and I remember that…there was a church next to us, about 100 meters away and there was a house also there. I still remember vaguely…these, all these elderly people with their hats and overcoats and we were wondering what they were doing all the time. We found out afterwards that they were actually…preparing…the freedom charter and it’s quite exciting to know we were playing around that time while the freedom charter was being prepared or signed.
ZK: What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an apartheid activist?
GHK: What I can recall is…at the time, this was now in the 70’s about 1976, 77…when…the unrest started but we all got together and we were marching in Lenasia and it was a peaceful march, it was up to a thousand people, there were religious leaders, elderly people,…mothers, aunties, sisters everybody was there and they all participated in this march we were altogether there because we wanted to show…our concern of the brutality of the apartheid system and as we were walking down the street then we were confronted with these caspers which blocked the way and all these cops were lined up there ready with their guns and that...and the imam of the…Hafez Noorbhai who was in the lead stopped the crowd and then…told them to hold on for a while because we couldn’t move forward, the caspers were there and this policeman, big Afrikaner guy, he knew there were over a thousand people and he says “Well I am going to give you 5 minutes in which to disperse or else I’m going to start shooting” and he knew it was impossible to disperse in 5 minutes and if he had only left the crowd they would have automatically dispersed because it was a peaceful process. We just wanted to make our voices heard and then in 5 minutes they started shooting tear gas and this is when all hell broke loose and then the youngsters also started pelting the policemen and they started burning cars and all that, especially the police cars. Unfortunately the media then blamed the crowd where as it was the police that instigated and started…the trouble!
ZK: Did you ever have a run in with the law at the time?
GHK: Yes, there was a time when...I was involved with the Al-Qalam which was a Muslim newspaper…I used to hand out Al-Qalams and one of the issues where we wrote against communism and against the apartheid system…where I was then called in by the police at the Protea Police Station and that was the notorious police station where they used to take people and interrogate them. They used to take the students there, to interrogate them and I was taken there and to one of the officers and I could see all these students lined up in the passage but…and they had to face the wall, so I came in there and then they had this big white chap standing in one of the officers and he tried to play the nice guy and the colored chaps that were there, they were sort of the bad guys, they used to come and hit you on the back and smack you and all that and then the white chap would say “no, no, no leave him alone” you know… “He’s okay” “don’t hit him” and that. All the time the white chap wanted to play nice guy so you could go to him and tell him all the stories and spy on others but he didn’t know we knew these tricks. We didn’t tell about anybody and afterwards they wanted to know why I’m giving these Al-Qalams and why I’m writing…why is this newspaper writing against the apartheid system and against communism and so I explained to them that as Muslims we have our own system and we are writing against this because we do not agree with any of these systems and then afterwards they let me go.
ZK: And who was the editor of the Al-Qalam?
GHK: The editor of the Al-Qalam at that time, there were many editors. I can recall I think it was Abdullah Osman at that time. There was…a chap by the name of Naeem Jeena, Yusuf Nazeer was also on the Al-Qalam, Joe Nazeer, he was also editor and there was somebody from Cape Town also. There were many other editors…for the Al-Qalam. It changed every 2 years or so.
ZK: What was your attitude like towards policies after those run-ins or bad experiences?
GHK: I realized with the, that these policies of the apartheid system was very brutal and inhumane and this made me very, this upset me greatly because…coming…according to what we are taught as Muslims where everybody’s equal…and even though the Qur’an says that we are created into nations and tribes so that we can know each other and that we can understand each other and not that we must despise each other and with this in mind I was involved even in the Muslim Youth Movement where we propagated all of these things and we were only talking of Qur’an and Sunnah…and…trying to show that there is an alternative view. That everybody’s created equal in front of…God and why is it that these…attitudes and policies are like that and we tried our own way to do something to try and change it.
ZK: do you still have contact with any of your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?
GHK: I…I always see them on TV. Now and then I keep in touch with them. There are many people involved there…for example…the person who was with us also in the Muslim Youth Movement was Ibrahim Rasool, Imam Solomon…he was also with the movement and there were many others and the person we’re not in touch personally but at least…I know about them, enquire about them. There are many outside of parliament but we I always keep in touch with them.
ZK: Were you ever arrested or detained?
GHK: No I was just, I was not detained, I was just called in for questioning and that was the one which I related at the Protea Police Station.
ZK: Were you an MK i.e. a member of the Military wing of the ANC at the time?
GHK: No I was not with the MK although, what we were basically involved in was more on the intellectual side but not with MK or any of the arm struggle.
ZK: Did you feel the efforts of your struggle were in vain?
GHK: There are times now where I feel that the efforts of our struggle is becoming…in vain because of the way that things are, going. The government is dragging its feet. We’ve got the money, we’ve got good policies but somehow they can’t seem to sort out in a quick span of time…to bring everybody up to a certain level as far as basic housing, to improve the lives of everybody. After so many years of democracy and freedom that by now we shouldn’t see any shacks and this is what is really, what is making me become more despondent.
ZK: How did you feel about those in power at the time i.e. what did you think of white supremacy at the time?
GHK: To me I just thought that they were really foolish and stupid because…although there were some whites…who didn’t even realize and they lived through apartheid. These were ordinary people that we used to meet and when we asked them they said no you people have the vote because of the tricamoral system. When they meet you, as human beings we have a nice discussion, we joked everything but when it came to the law that was the administration which was actually implementing all of this. Many times the ordinary whites didn’t even realize what we were going through…we would discuss things and they wondered why like for example it was voting for them and they would come to some of us and say “Abraham gaan jy nie vote nie?” aren’t you going to vote? But they didn’t even realize we didn’t have the vote. So many of them were also hoodwinked and…they just went with the system. Unfortunately they did not question this…the people in administration and they just went along with it.
ZK: How did you react to the many different laws e.g. the pass law, group areas act etc?
GHK: What we did with the pass law and the group areas act, we used to work around it. For example the pass laws they didn’t allow any maids to come into the area unless they had passes, they had the…restrictions on them but we used to quietly hire them…as long as they get employment. We needed the maids and that,…than if the police would come we use to hide them away and as far as the group areas act is concerned…we were not allowed to open businesses in white areas but we used to work around it. We used find some these whites who didn’t even know what was happening, they thought that there was freedom for everybody, we used to discuss and as human beings we used to get along well…and what used to happen is then they would volunteer to become our nominees and we used to run the businesses in white areas under the nominees and we used to tell them that we working for the white person and the paperwork, our accountants were very skilled. They used to make sure that all the paperwork shows that it is a white business, actually it was an Indian owned and the police couldn’t even catch us out.
ZK: Did you ever hear or see a neck lacing i.e. those people who spied on the apartheid state were burnt alive by a tyre placed over them?
GHK: No I did not see one, only what we saw on TV…although we were very close to, we were in crowds, many times we were in the crowds but we didn’t witness any of that.
ZK: What message would you like to share with the people of South Africa today?
GHK: What I would like to say is that I am very optimistic about South Africa…whenever I read the…when I sing the national anthem it is actually a prayer and it’s a very good prayer and if only we can follow what is in the national anthem also and I just feel that…when my eyes feels like tearing every time I read the national anthem then I feel sorry for the people that haven’t got the basic amenities. We should share with each other, we as Indians…we’ve got the skills and we must try and share with everybody, mentor them and tutor them and see what we can do but this country is a great country, we must make sure it works, we must just make sure that it mustn’t get derailed in any way and not let all the negativities get us down. We do get despondent at times but we must just hang in there and hopefully the things will sort out.
ZK: We don’t see i.e. in our communities, Indians and Muslims in particular involved in politics and the civil service as they should be. Therefore, what are your feelings about this and is there any advice you would like to share regarding this?
GHK: Yes this is very disappointing…there are Indians and there are Muslims involved in politics but not so many. Unfortunately as Muslims we’ve kept aloof of this because of our Islamic systems and we feel we have the best system yet we are not expanding this to the other communities…as I said earlier that…for example we see everybody’s equal we know the laws against alcohol, we know the laws against drug abuse. We have a very good system about cleanliness about…prayer about everything else but we are not stretching this to the other communities and this is unfortunate. Even in the administration there are many people, many Indians…in fact a lot who are skilled who can get into the administration, participate in there, help to mentor and tutor the people, the less privilege and make sure that the things work out well and we don’t sit back and complain so in other words we have to participate, get involved and this should come from the top, from the ulama, the learned people, the educationist and the people out there must make sure that they participate in all these activities.
ZK: Finally – are you hopeful of South Africa today?
GHK: Yes I’m very hopeful. We got a great country, we’ve got good laws, we’ve got cheques and balances…things will come right we just got to; we’ve got enough money in the country. We’ve got many of the systems that are working well although it’s going very slowly, if we can just speed up the process and I think we’ll become a very great country. Thank you
ZK: Thank you Mr. Kolia for your time, Assalamualaykum.
Name: Goolam Hoosen
Surname: Kolia
Date of Birth: 18 March 1950
Age: 57
Address: 7993 Capricorn Ave
Lenasia
Ext 9
Telephone No: (011) 8542394
Cell Phone No: 084 4977789
E-mail Address: koliagh@hotmail.com
Qualifications: Matric
Occupation: Accountant
Organization Involvement: SAHUC
Device used: Cell phone
ZK: Assalamualaykum…this is Zakiyyah Kolia…I am interviewing Mr. Goolam Hoosen Kolia who is going to tell us about the apartheid era.
Tell us something about yourself – your childhood and how you got involved in politics or political resistance.
GHK: …I was born in Klip town and…we used to live near squatter camps and our homes were not that elaborate, it was just the basic brick structure and…I remember we were not very well off but we used to play bare feet and you know in the rain and all that so it was quite fun during that time…and I remember that…there was a church next to us, about 100 meters away and there was a house also there. I still remember vaguely…these, all these elderly people with their hats and overcoats and we were wondering what they were doing all the time. We found out afterwards that they were actually…preparing…the freedom charter and it’s quite exciting to know we were playing around that time while the freedom charter was being prepared or signed.
ZK: What was the most significant event which you can recall during your time as an apartheid activist?
GHK: What I can recall is…at the time, this was now in the 70’s about 1976, 77…when…the unrest started but we all got together and we were marching in Lenasia and it was a peaceful march, it was up to a thousand people, there were religious leaders, elderly people,…mothers, aunties, sisters everybody was there and they all participated in this march we were altogether there because we wanted to show…our concern of the brutality of the apartheid system and as we were walking down the street then we were confronted with these caspers which blocked the way and all these cops were lined up there ready with their guns and that...and the imam of the…Hafez Noorbhai who was in the lead stopped the crowd and then…told them to hold on for a while because we couldn’t move forward, the caspers were there and this policeman, big Afrikaner guy, he knew there were over a thousand people and he says “Well I am going to give you 5 minutes in which to disperse or else I’m going to start shooting” and he knew it was impossible to disperse in 5 minutes and if he had only left the crowd they would have automatically dispersed because it was a peaceful process. We just wanted to make our voices heard and then in 5 minutes they started shooting tear gas and this is when all hell broke loose and then the youngsters also started pelting the policemen and they started burning cars and all that, especially the police cars. Unfortunately the media then blamed the crowd where as it was the police that instigated and started…the trouble!
ZK: Did you ever have a run in with the law at the time?
GHK: Yes, there was a time when...I was involved with the Al-Qalam which was a Muslim newspaper…I used to hand out Al-Qalams and one of the issues where we wrote against communism and against the apartheid system…where I was then called in by the police at the Protea Police Station and that was the notorious police station where they used to take people and interrogate them. They used to take the students there, to interrogate them and I was taken there and to one of the officers and I could see all these students lined up in the passage but…and they had to face the wall, so I came in there and then they had this big white chap standing in one of the officers and he tried to play the nice guy and the colored chaps that were there, they were sort of the bad guys, they used to come and hit you on the back and smack you and all that and then the white chap would say “no, no, no leave him alone” you know… “He’s okay” “don’t hit him” and that. All the time the white chap wanted to play nice guy so you could go to him and tell him all the stories and spy on others but he didn’t know we knew these tricks. We didn’t tell about anybody and afterwards they wanted to know why I’m giving these Al-Qalams and why I’m writing…why is this newspaper writing against the apartheid system and against communism and so I explained to them that as Muslims we have our own system and we are writing against this because we do not agree with any of these systems and then afterwards they let me go.
ZK: And who was the editor of the Al-Qalam?
GHK: The editor of the Al-Qalam at that time, there were many editors. I can recall I think it was Abdullah Osman at that time. There was…a chap by the name of Naeem Jeena, Yusuf Nazeer was also on the Al-Qalam, Joe Nazeer, he was also editor and there was somebody from Cape Town also. There were many other editors…for the Al-Qalam. It changed every 2 years or so.
ZK: What was your attitude like towards policies after those run-ins or bad experiences?
GHK: I realized with the, that these policies of the apartheid system was very brutal and inhumane and this made me very, this upset me greatly because…coming…according to what we are taught as Muslims where everybody’s equal…and even though the Qur’an says that we are created into nations and tribes so that we can know each other and that we can understand each other and not that we must despise each other and with this in mind I was involved even in the Muslim Youth Movement where we propagated all of these things and we were only talking of Qur’an and Sunnah…and…trying to show that there is an alternative view. That everybody’s created equal in front of…God and why is it that these…attitudes and policies are like that and we tried our own way to do something to try and change it.
ZK: do you still have contact with any of your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?
GHK: I…I always see them on TV. Now and then I keep in touch with them. There are many people involved there…for example…the person who was with us also in the Muslim Youth Movement was Ibrahim Rasool, Imam Solomon…he was also with the movement and there were many others and the person we’re not in touch personally but at least…I know about them, enquire about them. There are many outside of parliament but we I always keep in touch with them.
ZK: Were you ever arrested or detained?
GHK: No I was just, I was not detained, I was just called in for questioning and that was the one which I related at the Protea Police Station.
ZK: Were you an MK i.e. a member of the Military wing of the ANC at the time?
GHK: No I was not with the MK although, what we were basically involved in was more on the intellectual side but not with MK or any of the arm struggle.
ZK: Did you feel the efforts of your struggle were in vain?
GHK: There are times now where I feel that the efforts of our struggle is becoming…in vain because of the way that things are, going. The government is dragging its feet. We’ve got the money, we’ve got good policies but somehow they can’t seem to sort out in a quick span of time…to bring everybody up to a certain level as far as basic housing, to improve the lives of everybody. After so many years of democracy and freedom that by now we shouldn’t see any shacks and this is what is really, what is making me become more despondent.
ZK: How did you feel about those in power at the time i.e. what did you think of white supremacy at the time?
GHK: To me I just thought that they were really foolish and stupid because…although there were some whites…who didn’t even realize and they lived through apartheid. These were ordinary people that we used to meet and when we asked them they said no you people have the vote because of the tricamoral system. When they meet you, as human beings we have a nice discussion, we joked everything but when it came to the law that was the administration which was actually implementing all of this. Many times the ordinary whites didn’t even realize what we were going through…we would discuss things and they wondered why like for example it was voting for them and they would come to some of us and say “Abraham gaan jy nie vote nie?” aren’t you going to vote? But they didn’t even realize we didn’t have the vote. So many of them were also hoodwinked and…they just went with the system. Unfortunately they did not question this…the people in administration and they just went along with it.
ZK: How did you react to the many different laws e.g. the pass law, group areas act etc?
GHK: What we did with the pass law and the group areas act, we used to work around it. For example the pass laws they didn’t allow any maids to come into the area unless they had passes, they had the…restrictions on them but we used to quietly hire them…as long as they get employment. We needed the maids and that,…than if the police would come we use to hide them away and as far as the group areas act is concerned…we were not allowed to open businesses in white areas but we used to work around it. We used find some these whites who didn’t even know what was happening, they thought that there was freedom for everybody, we used to discuss and as human beings we used to get along well…and what used to happen is then they would volunteer to become our nominees and we used to run the businesses in white areas under the nominees and we used to tell them that we working for the white person and the paperwork, our accountants were very skilled. They used to make sure that all the paperwork shows that it is a white business, actually it was an Indian owned and the police couldn’t even catch us out.
ZK: Did you ever hear or see a neck lacing i.e. those people who spied on the apartheid state were burnt alive by a tyre placed over them?
GHK: No I did not see one, only what we saw on TV…although we were very close to, we were in crowds, many times we were in the crowds but we didn’t witness any of that.
ZK: What message would you like to share with the people of South Africa today?
GHK: What I would like to say is that I am very optimistic about South Africa…whenever I read the…when I sing the national anthem it is actually a prayer and it’s a very good prayer and if only we can follow what is in the national anthem also and I just feel that…when my eyes feels like tearing every time I read the national anthem then I feel sorry for the people that haven’t got the basic amenities. We should share with each other, we as Indians…we’ve got the skills and we must try and share with everybody, mentor them and tutor them and see what we can do but this country is a great country, we must make sure it works, we must just make sure that it mustn’t get derailed in any way and not let all the negativities get us down. We do get despondent at times but we must just hang in there and hopefully the things will sort out.
ZK: We don’t see i.e. in our communities, Indians and Muslims in particular involved in politics and the civil service as they should be. Therefore, what are your feelings about this and is there any advice you would like to share regarding this?
GHK: Yes this is very disappointing…there are Indians and there are Muslims involved in politics but not so many. Unfortunately as Muslims we’ve kept aloof of this because of our Islamic systems and we feel we have the best system yet we are not expanding this to the other communities…as I said earlier that…for example we see everybody’s equal we know the laws against alcohol, we know the laws against drug abuse. We have a very good system about cleanliness about…prayer about everything else but we are not stretching this to the other communities and this is unfortunate. Even in the administration there are many people, many Indians…in fact a lot who are skilled who can get into the administration, participate in there, help to mentor and tutor the people, the less privilege and make sure that the things work out well and we don’t sit back and complain so in other words we have to participate, get involved and this should come from the top, from the ulama, the learned people, the educationist and the people out there must make sure that they participate in all these activities.
ZK: Finally – are you hopeful of South Africa today?
GHK: Yes I’m very hopeful. We got a great country, we’ve got good laws, we’ve got cheques and balances…things will come right we just got to; we’ve got enough money in the country. We’ve got many of the systems that are working well although it’s going very slowly, if we can just speed up the process and I think we’ll become a very great country. Thank you
ZK: Thank you Mr. Kolia for your time, Assalamualaykum.
Interview with Dr. Sayed Nathie and RIS Indepent journalists and Mr. Abdullah Sujee (The underlined words spelling may be incorrect)
Dr.: The whole vibrant community of Soweto was moved to Medowlands and uh one of the songs that came out of that area was Medowlands Setando song. You know many people said you’ll hear what the Whites say, they, the Whites are saying that we should move to Medowlands but the stotsis will say no. There is no way we’re going to move to Medowlands. We going to stay right where we are, because actually there’s a song that came out and that was uh uh uh a very well known song and a very liberating type of a song. Also, if you look at all Mandela and uh uh… I remember Walter Sisulu used to come to our house once… and we were sitting down to dinner and no I think we just finished dinner and I remember his words he says “ I guess I’m late for supper”. You know and that was his words. So he was a very a good friend of my fathers and Robert Sibuke and all of them came from Everton area. Robert Sibuke, Walter Sisulu. Everton was the hot bed. Klip Town was the hot bed. Elexander town too was a hot bed. So people had a lot of guts I must say. Because you know to take the Dom Pass was a document was given to everybody to carry. And the Africans… and at any given time they were given to produce it. So they were the least equipped community that had to carry the most burdens. That is why if you looked at all the locations, they situated away from the cities. Yeah it’s like they just wanted everything to be white. And the problem with the… and the problem with the White government is uh if they just looked at the country as a whole. And said this is South Africa. This is the number of electricians we need. This is the number of plumbers we need. This is what we need for the development of the country. Looked at it instead of a very narrow way… as a very broad minded approach to the whole complex uh uh idea of running a country. We wouldn’t be in the position that we are now. Never. They caused it. And you know all this that you see now. I would say eighty to ninety percent of the blame must rest on them. Because if you, if you grew up annd you got an African that grows up with you and you have all the priveledges. You go to school. By the time you are the age that you are now, you have the economic power to buy what you like. Yu want to buy a radio. You want to buy a dress. You want to buy a shoe. You’ve got that. Her aspirations are exactly the same as yours, but she’s not equipped she’s been deprived of it. So what does she do. She stands next to you. You grew up together, but look at where you stand economically and where does she stand economically. You see that’s a very, a very big difference. So uh you know we must. I see a lot of Africans now that I’m in Sandton. I see the Africans that I see how they have educated themselves. I admire them to bits. There are, they speak so well. They’ve got such good manners., you know. They come through and they in good, very good positions. And I’m very very happy when I see them. And I see lawyers, I see accountants, I see people in financial positions, you know. I see doctors. I meet a lot of doctors. Many times…our…you see the problem with the Aparthied thing it also brainwashes you. You look down upon the African. You also have your own dicrimination. You also become very discriminatory. And when you see them, you cannot believe it. That how can they be a doctor, how can she be a financial uh person you know. How can she run a company like that. All these are inborne prejudices. Well, not inborne, you have been brainwashed basically to think like that. But they are capable, they are very good. You and I are like them a lot. All these things that happen are probably ten to seven percent of the people you know. And majority of the population are blacks and majority of the crime are going to be perpertrated. But there’s a lot of white collar crimes as well.
RIS: Earlier you made mention you know of people like Walter Sisulu coming home. And just you know after dinner and you know you made mention they were around. Do you still have contact with these people? And do you have maybe contact with you know fellow activists (that come into mind)?
Dr.: Unfortunately none hey. I was just, the last two persons were Mrs and Mr Mandela. Our ex president Mr Mandela. I was like uh uh a personal position to him for a copla years. But then… they… because look people passed on, Walter Sisulu and all passed on. And uh Desmond Tutu I didn’t really know him that well but uh Katherie and so on. I mean we read about him in the papers, we meet him every now and then. Well I’ve met him three times since he’s been released. Essop Pahad, Aziz… they, we all grew up together. So uh yeah it’s still ther Ameena Cachalia you know. And then even when they were in exile. Molly Cachalia in Bombay. I mean he used to come to our house and he used to sit there and discuss things and so on. But he was also in exile and so was our ex foreign (minister) yeah what’s his name? uh Alfred Mzoz he used to come to our house in Bombay. He used to stay there with us. He used to sleep in the house you know uh three four days, and then he would go back to Delhi to the foreign office there. It happens all these people are yeah not much. I just recently went to …uh Robben Island and it brought back a whole lot of memories you know. Yeah yeah.
RIS: Uhm what was your career like after your…uh the unbanning of the ANC?
Dr.: Well you know whenever you lived in fear in the Apartheid era. And then you lived in fear post ninety-four because of all the crime and things upsurges that happened. First nearly I was hijacked three times, I’ve been held at gun point nini times. So you know I had it on both sides. First you had the proper fear with the Whites and you have the fear now with the African people you know well a portion of the African people. So uh I just never let it get me down. You know I just stood up and I just keep a straight face and I just forget about it emmediately. And I don’t sort of hold on to it and let it affect me otherwise you can’t live with it. Yeah.
RIS: Uhm do you ever feel that you are uhm your efforts have gone unnoticed?
Dr.: No I don’t think so. Not at all.
RIS: Now in the new South Africa. You don’t see many Indians especially Muslims getting involved in the government,and getting involved in politics. What do you think abuot it you know from your point of view, what do you think the future of our country holds for us Muslims?
Dr.: I just feel it’s very sad that none of us get involved in politics. I think we living in a little emplay because even during the Aparthied times there was some Muslim people amongst us that used to say thank God for Aparthied you know. Therefore we’ve got our own little ghetto that we can live in. You see and we can be with one another. I mean that is how Muslim people think. Generally that even now I find… uh I don’t find Muslims thinking at an intellectual level. Because if you look basically what’s happening today everything is… it’s actually clautrophobic the way they acting. They very small minded, they very narrow minded. I mean if I have to write a death certificate of a Muslim I’ll say he died of narrow mindedness. I mean you know they are so narrow minded. Uh… I don’t see any thinktanks I don’t see… you know in religion if youlook at the prophet… uh this thing there’s a social aspect. I don’t see anything happening on a social scale. I don’t see any thinktanks coming out with new ideas. I don’t see any creativity. I don’t see anybody with innovative. You know it’s basically as if someone has brainwashed you so much, that you just think along this small and narrow mind. You are bombarded by Radio Islam. You go to the mosque they bombard you more. Eventually you come home, mentally you’re a curtain. Nothing in your mind.
RIS: So what advice do you now pass on to us?
Dr.: I would tell you that go out there. There’s a very big world. Just stay with the five pillars and you’ll be very happy, just the five pillars. Forget about the foundations. There are too many foundations. The five pillars. Handle the nicely, and then you’re fine. Don’t… don’t labour them you know. That is part of being a Muslim and just do whatever is necesarry and carry on. I see people sitting and reading the Quraan and they read the Quraan and they say that to recite the Quraan and to hear it loudly, that in itself is Thawaab. It’s a blessing. How can that be? When your creater is a scientist? Your creater must be a scientist. He cannot be anything else. How will he put all the heavens? How will he put all the planets? How will he put all the stars? How will he run everything? The weather you know there’s a million things that have to happen. The rivers have to flow, the mountains have to be there. The ice caps has to be there. He’s got to be a scientist to be able to do that. And you think like a moron. So if you want to be close to God you’ve got to be… try and have all the attributes that he has, understand? I always tell the people in the morning, you’re Muslim, that’s fine. You’ve got your pillars and so on. But put on your shirt and your pants and then go to work. And your asset is being, be sincere, be honest, have intergrity. Be reliable, be trustworthy. Be sensitive to the people of other people and then be… be punctual. I’ve never been late in my life for any appointment. In my life. If I’m late I will phone and say look I’m running five minutes late. I’ll actually phone to say. This is my habit. All my life. Fatima is the same, we never late, we never keep anybody waiting. If I’ve got an appoinment with you, if I’m five minutes late, it means I’m more important than you, tell me? So that’s my appeal. Thae aim is to have an active mind, you must think. The most thing… the biggest thing that differentiates you from an animal, is your mind and your brain. And sometimes you have to think differently from everybody else. You can’t just go with the mill. You have to sit up and say is this guy… what did he say? Does it make sense? And then think in terms of your Almighty, that your almighty. You there are (laugh) I’m digressing abi but you’ve got the athiest, and you’ve got the agnostic. Then you got a theist. A theist, he says God created the heavens and earth, and now he comes below the heavens and is involved in your daily affairs. Did he stand and go to the wee? Did he wear his trousers here above the thing? Did he do this? God is involved in all that. Now God, can God who is such a super being be involved in mundane affairs? That is insulting God. How can you say that God can be involved in daily little mundane affairs? In other words you reducing him to a human. I’m going to make God happy. Is God a little baby? I’m going to make God sad. You know we talk like that without even thinking. We talking about our creater who is a million times more than you and me. Then you get the daist. The daist says no. God created the heavens and the earth but he’s above all that. He lives in the heavens, he does his things. You on earth, his given you your brains, sort out your problems. Therefore you’ve got the African, you’ve got the Chinese, you got the Japanese, you got everything. And the only Asian nation,that I have respect for today is the Japanese. It’s the only other country that has got order. You go there, you can find a train, you can find a telephone, there’s cleanliness, there’s everything that a Muslim is supposed to be. That’s what they are. If you go to the Western countries, exactly the same. If you’re a handicapped, they’ve got a parking bay for you. If you’re handicapped, they’ve got a wheelchair for you, that they’ve invented and operated and they’ve got a ramp that you can use to go. So in other words although you’re handicapped,you can… you still feel like a human. Show me any Asian country, Muslim country, where you can feel that. And we boast and we talk. You see so this is… these are the things that you must get away from. Rise above the rest. Open your eyes and open your mind and say but how can that be? We went to a this thing here, we went here to a…a …a wedding on Sunday. It was Zohr time, everybody made Wudhu. Go in to the bathroom and see what they did to the bathroom. I went and picked up everything because I was ashamed. All the you know hand towels and things like that, so it was like there was a riot. I took everythng and I just put it into the corner. Because if those people had to come and see what are these people upto. Is this what the religion teaches? Sorry you wanted to ask something?
RIS: Uh doctor I want to ask you in terms of Apartheid. When did you start uh having an interest for golf and did the Apartheid ever stop you from uh pursuing a maybe profession or career?
Dr.: I was a very good bowler. I was a very good cricket bowler. I could have made the Springbok side. I really tell you that because I was very very good. But I used to play, I remember I went to Durban, I studied in Durban. Now after school I used to come out and just sit there and watch them on the playing fields. And wish that I could be playing cricket there and showing them you know whatever little skills I had and so on. Because I really wanted to be a bowler. Yeah so in that way I just felt I never had the opportunity, never had the chance. And everytime that I was at school, I always wanted to be in the sport. I wanted to play tennis, I wanted to play hockey, I wanted to… but we couldn’t. It wasn’t allowed. Here Apartheid is, I went to Lusaka to visit my brother in law, just to get out of South Africa. Because it’s stiffling during the Apartheid years. And there he would play. He was playing golf one afternoon, he said come along. And I took a club and I started hitting and I found that I was hitting quite okay you know. And then I came back home to South Africa in the mid seventies, forgot all about it. And then the eighties there was this desire again to go and play. So I used to play on the velds. I used to take a club and just go knock a ball on the veld. I remember I had a seveniron, and we made little holes in the ground in the veld and you know I used to just hit. And then finally we could play at Ohenrimori. But you had to be there at half past four in the morning. We should get up at four o’clock, get the caddie and go there at half past four. I mean you see the caddie disappearing in the mist because there’s no light. And you had to be off there by seven o’clock. And if they saw you there, the Afrikaaners, they really insulted him. They said so many things you know. But it’s the type of game that once you… you always want to play, you want to get somewhere. So you had to duck and dive. Whatever you could to get there. I remember going to Crowngrounds and telling her that like on a Thursday afternoon I’d like to play and they refused. I stood my ground and I said no but I want to play. No you must come on a Monday and play with the caddies. I said I’m sorry I’m a doctor I don’t play with the caddies. And uh on Monday it’s a busy day for me. So then the committee had a meeting. And I was the first guy thet played golf at Crowngrounds during the Apartheid years. And the finally after three or four years there was a Mr. Tate there who was running the whole thing. And uh he said to me, okay doctor you can become a member now if you want to. I said okay I don’t want to become a member, not until it’s open for everybody. You understand? I don’t want preferential treatment so I’ll keep coming on a Thursday and playing. And that is how it went.
Lady: And what about Reshaad?
Dr.: Oh yeah my son Reshaad. I think we made an apointment for him in Vereeniging with a pro, to go and get some lessons and they refused. So then I went and I bought a whole lot of books. And I started studying the books and learning from the books. And I started teaching him from the books. And he came on quite nicely, he was playing quite well and so on. And I bought finally you know you go through so many books. Finally got a book called The Modren Fundamentals Of Golf. I think I got it here somewhere. You can see there’s lines drawn through it, every page, little notes here, there, everywhere. What do we know about golf? You know those years especially. So it’s just through the books you know that I got some incling, some idea. And uh where do you play as well. That one day we went to Durban and uh there was a lady. And uh you know Durban is even worse than Joburgh. So uh I went upto her, I said uh you know I’m from Johannesburgh. I’ve been teaching my son, I don’t know whether I’m on the right track or not, but I see you’re giving lessons here. Can you please just have a look at him you know? And she had a look at him and uh she actually complimented me and said you’ve done a wonderful job. Just carry on with whatever you’re doing, and just let him go and hit more and more balls in the range. But then the structure in South Africa was such that you know he… there’s one tournament a year. You gotta particapate in that tournament, and if you miss it, you miss the cut. You miss it by one or two, you gotta wait another year. And so the years dragged by. And you can’t just make it in the first year, it’s very hard. You need a lot of experience, you need a lot of eexposure and so on. So he was in the uh uh uh under fourteens you know. He was doing very well those years. And then when he grew up, there wa no where for him to go play and no no other Indian players. Because you could only play with the Indians. We didn’t know any Whites of Africans never had… that were playing there that time, so that is how it happened. But him too, it wasn’t easy for him. I remember taking him to..to ..to what is it called here in Vereeniging? The Magobe Fountain. I should tak him on the coldest day of the year. Early morning, when it’s frozen, ice and everything. And I should say lets go and play. And he should freeze, absolutely freeze. And I said it doesn’t matter if it’s cold, it’s cold. So we used to get stones and put it into the oven nd warm it up. And put it into the pockets, and warm your hands with it and now go. And sometimes the water, you could see the ice floating on the water that time of the morning. And he would finish the round and I tell him now you know what cold is, never complain about cold. And I took him once when it was raining the whole day. I made him play the whole day in the rain. So I told him now you know what it is like being… never complain about rain. Then I took him to Durban once. And I was sick, under going an operation and so on. When I got up from my bed. And it was blowing. It was like this on the coast, and I took him there. He was hitting the ball and there was this little fellow. And the wind blows the ball this way and that way, and he sat down and he was crying you know. I said get up and one day you’ll master this course. So we finished everything, and I said now you know what it feels like playing in the wind. Then I took him on an extremely hot day. So mentally, I prepared him in every possible way that I felt that he needed to be a strong person. But generally you see our people are like that. They very weak. Everything is a …a problem. And if I could send that child, I would have sent him to America, to one of those schools in America you know. Where they teach you to be a man. Where nothing is too difficult. You see how many people do you see climbing Mount Everest. Do you ever see an Indian man there? It’s in India. But the Whites are climbing from all. Have you ever seen an Indian climbing a mountain? Why? What’s wrong with us? Look at our Indian team. There’s no discipline. There’s no discipline. And where are we going to learn this? So if you wat to get discipline. In everything there must be discipline. And that’s what gives you strength. Any more questions? Steve Biko, out of all the Apartheid activists, that is the man I admire most. He had no fear. They mutilated him, but he would stand up and say, “I’m not your kaffar, you are not my boss”. And the White man would smack him and hit him. And punch him but he would still get up and say. That is guts.
Mr. Sujee: Jazaakallah
Lady: Let me make tea now
RIS: No aunty
Lady: Your grandfather was a strong man, we know him very well, very punctual, he was somebody
Interveiw with Doctor Jasat and RIS Independent Journalists and Mr. Abdullah Sujee(The underlined words spelling may be wrong)
Dr.: You know first was that uh you know my they kept a watch on what we were doing. My mail was, it went through the senses. The phones were tapped and then of course you know the… I was banned so that I could not move around in this country. I was confined to Johannesburgh for ten years, following that of coure the number of prisons I had to visit.
RIS: What was your attitude like towards politics after those run ins or bad experiences with the law?
Dr.: Sorry repeat that?
RIS: (Repeat)
Dr.: You see for me politics is not a proffesion. It’s a fight against injustice in this world. And a Muslim. To be a true Muslim, you have to fight also for injustice. You know there’s a saying of our Prophet. There’s few stages when you see oppresion one is that you keep quiet and say it’s bad. Second is that you speak out against it that is you take an active part physically to bring about changes. As a Muslim one has no other option but to carry out a struggle against what we thought or atleast what I thought was unfair and unjust in the country of my birth.
RIS: Um do you still have contact with your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?
Dr. Yes I have contact. And I’ve been in, I was in parliament for ten years. Some of them were in parliament. A lot of them are no longer living. They have past on. There is quite a number still around. Some in this area. Take Everton for instance, Suliman Nathie who was the secretary of the council of Indian congress. And then of course Dr. Shibd Salloojee. Parents lived in the Vaal triangle, he’s also still around. Still around, still active. Quite a number of them.
RIS: A side from keeping in contact with people in the government or in parliement. Do you still have contact with your fellow activists and comrades, that may not be in parliament?
Dr.: Yes we still meet them on occasions. You know at functions, at funerals, marriages and social functions. We meet some of them.
RIS: What was your career like after the unbanning of the ANC?
Dr.: Well after the unbanning of the ANC I was elected to parliament. I served ten years in parliament. I was on three committees. First was the health community and then was the sectical coloral committee and the third one, I was appointed by Mr. Mandela on uh called the ethics committee, we should look into functioning or non functioning and corruption of members of parliament.
RIS: Did you ever feel that your efforts may have gone unnoticed?
Dr.: Never felt that way. I mean hundreds of people participated. But the changes that have come about are not through the efforts of one person. It’s not Mandela who brought freedom. It’s the effort of hundreds of people who struggled to bring about this change. So my effort was a minute effort against the struggle of Apartheid to bring about a just society.
RIS: Back to the topics of riots, and could you maybe explain to us any bad sights that you may have seen? Some of the worst riots that you may have been part of or witnessed? And something that we tend to hear and it’s not something very pleasant, something called necklacing, could explain that?
Dr.: No, unfortunately I have never witnessed such necklacing. No, I haven’t so I can’t give you any information on that.
RIS: What about riots, some of the worst ones, could you just tell us really what is was about?
Dr.: Riots. When one went to demonstration, there were police marching and people with batons and that. I was at the congress of the people, where the freedom charter was… uh founded. And I remember that Sunday afternoon hudrends of policemen pinching the grounds in Kliptown, tearing up posters, throwing people around, beating them up. You know because I was there at that historic occasion.
RIS: What’s your veiw on the present South Africa. Do you have hope for it?
Dr.: Absolutely otherwise I wouldn’t be here. I would’ve left this country many years ago. There’s hope, there’s. South Africa has a great future. We’ve only had twelve years of democracy. It has a great future. You’ve got one of the best constitutions, finest constitutions in the world. And things have worked out, you know when the change took place, people were worried. That they would be killed and murdered and they would be raped and their houses looted. Nothing of that sort. It was a revolution without much violence, or very little violence.
RIS: Regarding the youth of South Africa, like uhm us. How do you see us moving towards leadership in this country?
Dr.: Well… uh the said thing is that you haven’t gone through that experience that we went through. So you haven’t felt the anger and the wrath that we felt. But I think that there’s hope for our people. There are no more restrictions. You can go ahead in your studies and whatever path you choose. There’s freeedom in this country. A great future for the young people of this country.
RIS: In terms of, on that point, we don’t really see many Indians and particularly Muslims you know getting involved in government, getting involved in politics. If that was sort of past on to you, who are you going to pass it on to? What are your feelings about this? And I mean you know back to what do you see our future as Muslims and in terms of the youth, what do you see there?
Dr.: The unfortonate thing is that things have been so smooth and calm that there was no need for our young people to struggle. So you know they haven’t gone into that feild. I hope that you know that our people participate in the running of this country. Otherwise we will be marginalised. And our history, the contribution that the Muslim community or the Indian community made will be forgotten. So unless our young people make some interest in the running of the… not politics but the running affairs of this country. It might not be to our disadvantage, you know we will be forgotten as a seection of the community that has lost control of it’s past.
RIS: Generally are you optimistic though, is there hope for us?
Dr.: Yes there is hope for us. There is definitely hope for us.
RIS: What message would you like to share with us as the youth and as the Muslim youth and students. What message would you like to share with us in terms of opportunities that now have shown themselves?
Dr.: The message I would like to give to students is that Islam is a wholistic religion. It’s not only confined to prayers and you know giving alms and looking after the orphans and attaining to the aged. It is about participating in every aspect of life in this country. And as Muslims we should do that. Become part of South Africa and make South Africa a country where people can be proud of and people look up on us as the ideal society and this the youth can make a contribution to.
RIS: Now in terms of our book, and this project that we trying out, we hoping willl be successful. What are your feelings about it? Is there any advice you can pass on?
Dr. Yes, you know a history in this country has been distorted and one sided. We learnt about the Voortrek and the you know Afrikaaners who went into the interland. About the Brittish who came here and took over, but little has been written about the inigenous people of this country. Of the various other communities. And I think it should be recorded and I think you’ll make a contribution to understanding our past and hope for our future. If you have such statements in society.
RIS: Doctor saab in terms of when you were a young man. We all know men loved their sport. So in Apartheid times what was… who was your icon in terms of sport, and in terms of the sports world? And what sports if any do you play?
Dr. Well, you see I grew up in a place called Vrededorp and there was one little ground there not turfed you know. And what would happen is that on Saturday during Winter they would play rugby and on Sunday would be soccer. And in between when the ground was not occupied by others we’d go and play soccer. In the summer of course we played cricket. But most of the cricket played was in the streets of Vrededorp. You know tomatoe boxes would be stumps. And the of course the streets hectored and sometime of course dangerous because the ball would hit the window panes smashing it. Sometimes we had to run for life you see. And that was it. But the two main sports was soccer and cricket. We had no swimmimg pools, never learnt to swim. Various other sports were played. Only got to know about others sports after PT was introduced to this country. Where we knew about netball and hockey and you know the other sports in this country.
RIS: Did you have ant bad experiences when it came to your sports? You know did you have any run ins with the law?
Dr.: Yes. Not with the law but a lot of grazed knees. Bumps on the head, falling on the ground. Those were the experiences that we had. Not really with the law but often with the residents in the area. We played… because it was confined spaces and you know you would hit the ball into someones front room or smash his window. So that is the run ins we had with the… we lived and played.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor obviously when I looked at you. I look at you as… as my senior. And when the pupils look at me, they look at me as their senior. When you look at Mandela, he’s your senioir. How did… what was that relationship between you, Mr. Mandela, late Yusuf dadoo. Explain to us that comaraderie, because that friendship made it such that you people change the history of the country.
Dr.: My rection towards politics was in the 1949 riot in Durban. What had happened was that the Donsol Indian Congress appealed for funds for all the victims, not only Zulus but Indians. And I had heard that they needed people to address envelopes. So I went up to the Congress offices in town. And what they would do was give me a box of envelopess. It was brown envelopes and one page or two pages of the telephone directory you know torn out. And then I would insert and put the appeal in that. Going to the Congress offices I came into contact with Yusuf Dadoo, Malwe Cachalia, Solly Nathie from Everton. There was Ahmed Kathrada, young man. That got me interested, but prior to that, you see my family had the history of some political involvement. My father was brought into this country, or invited into this country by Suliman Asvat. Who was the associate of Ghandi, and at one time chairman of the Congress. That was my one association. The other one was my elder brother Mohammed, went in to the you know, they had a … it was the law against the asiatic representation act. Where they pumped themselves in Durban, Namilo Road. And he was in one of the batches that did that. So there was already that stimulation from the family.
Mr. Sujee: So it was in the family.
Dr.: In a way, yes it was.
Mr. Sujee: Where you ever tortured in prison?
Dr.:No. What had happened was that when we were first arrested, they had actually killed Bapda Sallojee, so many were evicted forth. When they arrested me. They wanted me to make a statement that I wasn’t being tortured. Which I refused to do, but how to say I’ve been unjustifiably arrested. It was called the ninety days. I was picked up under the ninety days. So not really tortured. But some people were tortured. Fortunately I was never tortured.
Mr. Sujee: Do you know of people who were tortured?
Dr.: Yes, I know of people who were tortured. There was a lawyer who had a fear of dogs, and what they would do was, not physically torture but bring a dog into his cell you know. That sort of thing. But others were beaten and physically manged in many ways.
Mr. Sujee: We met with Abdul Samid Karani. I’m sure Dr. Jasat knows his involvment. And he spoke about the neck lacing which was very…
Dr.: He saw that.
Mr. Sujee: He saw that. And one thing he pressed on my, or our mind was that he said in Eskor, there was these huge furnaces. The talk amongst the comrades, they say it was’nt a rumour. It was the talk amongst the comrades that many of the children were actually thrown in that furnace once they were killed. Would you believe something like that?
Dr.: Yes, now the story has now appeared that this doctor what’s his name… Walter Bason was part of the group that would anaesthize these people and throw them into the sea, take them into a plane. A lot of the activists disappeared with no trace of them left. Some would be burried, they have dug up these graves and they have had big burials taking place. So that has taken place.
Mr. Sujee: So this story that Abdul Samid Karani told us, because you see we want to photograph this furnace in Eskor and put that on our front cover. Because when he told me that I said Insha-Allah we must write a book on this because it’s going to disappear. No one will hear the truth. And his daughter, his Attiyah Karani you know that’s howcome she’s here. So if I had to tell you that story, if I was an activist you’d actually believe it? There’s some truth in it?
Dr.: Well, you know I can’t vouch for that. I don’t know about that. Being thrown in the furnace no. Honestly I won’t be able to.
Mr. Sujee: It’s not possibe given what they did?
Dr.: They did bad things. But I wouldn’t, I’m not sure about what they did there you know.
RIS: Uhm you mentioned you know, back to the point where they were very badly beaten and very severely beaten. We also heard that they were beaten to such an extent that some lost their lives, and others at this point have gone unheared.
Dr.: Yes, there’s a number of Muslims that lost their time. One was the Bapda Salloojee who was thrown. There was an Imaam Haroun who was accused of suggesting that he slipped on a soap and killed himself. There was this boy from Azaadville, what’s his name again not Simuljee, he was mudered by the police also. Can’t get his name now. Ahmed Timol yes, he was killed by the police. No the police were brutal, the security police.
Mr. Sujee: They were called the special branch?
Dr.: The special branch. They were absolutely you know ruthless.
Mr. Sujee: When you saw the changes happening in 1994 when Mandela was released. Did you cry out of happiness or was it just… explain your emotion to us you know?
Dr.: You see we never believed that freedom would come in our lifetime, so when this happened… I mean absolutely wonderfull I mean you know you felt that it was worthwhile having struggled for freedom in this country. And to live n this country. You know one becomes today… one can go to any part of the world and you say you from South Africa, you considered, tour reputation is there you see. So it’s something one can be proud to be South African. And also South Africans of Indian origin belonging to the Islamic faith or Muslim faith. Have to be proud of that.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor, when you look at young people like this you know sacrificing their holidays you know and uh wanting to produce a book. And coming to you and getting your story as part of the Vaal Hearings, that’s the title we’ve given it. Did you feel… explain your feelings? Because you must be thinking it cannot be real you know, I never dreamt about this when fighting the struggle.
Dr.: You know I’m quite proud that there’s an awakening amongst our young people. You know that there’s a history or that past which they can be proud of. This must never be lost. And the young people doing this makes me very happy. You know that this is… whatever we did was not in vain. You know it’s going to inspire young people and bring about a society which is far better than we ever thought was possible.
Mr. Sujee: Now you see as a teacher when I talk to these people about Apartheid. Believe me, they tell me sir you’re lying. There wasn’t a que that said whites only. Can you elaborate on that? Because I want it to come from people like yourself because you actually seen it. You’ve witnessed it you know.
Dr.: You see those days you could only go to an Indian school. If you travelled in trams in Johannesburgh, eight portions of the trams was reserved for non whites. And some of the trams the you know eight portions were open so in raining weather the Whites have the priviledge of sitting you know in the shaded… covered portion and you’d sit there. You could not go to use any library. You could not go to any museum. You could not go to any cinema, that was not planned for you, for example if you were an Indian, you could only go to an Indian cinema. Plays that were performed were out of bounce for you and that was it. If you travelled also, in the plane certain seats were reserved for Blacks in South African planes. Trains too, there were separate coaches for Blacks and Whites. So you know everything… and to enter the Post Office you had to enter a separate Post Office. In the area I lived there was a bank called Volkskas bank. There were two entrances, one for Whites and one for Blacks. In the Post Office too, you had a separate counter. And that was it. And of course you couldn’t lived where you liked. You know what they called Group Areas. You know people were confined to an African area, coloured area, or a White area. South Africa was divided in eveything. And then there were loss of opportunities. You couldn’t go to any university. In fact, I was part of a quota system at university. Of the two hundred or more entries into the first year, there was a quota of twelve for so called non Whites. And that would mean Chinese, Coloured, Indians… and Indian. So you had to compete to get in. Wits the only available university. They of course accepted universities for Afrikaaners into an Afrikaans university, Pretoria university, Stellenbosch. All white, you couldn’t go to. Of course years later they did develop an Indian university in Durban. That was the whole set up. You haven’t been… you very lucky you haven’t been through that phase. My daughter and then one day we were gone to the Zoo Lake, we were driving past, there’s a small little playing field here. So they said stop we want to go on to the swings. So I said it’s only for Whites and they said but we not Black. It’s just around the corner we were in the area, but couldn’t go play on the swings.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor Insha-Allah what we hope now is that you can use this as an inspiration to make us meet Mandela. Just to tell him you know that we appreciate your effort because it hasn’t been wasted.
Dr.: What I’m going to suggest is. I want you to send a fax because uh to his secretary Zelda LeGrange. I’ve got the phone number and send uh say the project, you’d like to interview him. See what happens. It should be done by fax hey, send a fax. I’ll give you the number. Not for now. It’s a bit difficult to get hold of him now. He doesn’t see many people but we can make an attempt. He’s quite old now.
(Talking)
Mr. Sujee: Probably just forward it to Desmond Tutu as well.
Dr.: that wouldn’t be so difficult.
RIS: Earlier you made mention you know of people like Walter Sisulu coming home. And just you know after dinner and you know you made mention they were around. Do you still have contact with these people? And do you have maybe contact with you know fellow activists (that come into mind)?
Dr.: Unfortunately none hey. I was just, the last two persons were Mrs and Mr Mandela. Our ex president Mr Mandela. I was like uh uh a personal position to him for a copla years. But then… they… because look people passed on, Walter Sisulu and all passed on. And uh Desmond Tutu I didn’t really know him that well but uh Katherie and so on. I mean we read about him in the papers, we meet him every now and then. Well I’ve met him three times since he’s been released. Essop Pahad, Aziz… they, we all grew up together. So uh yeah it’s still ther Ameena Cachalia you know. And then even when they were in exile. Molly Cachalia in Bombay. I mean he used to come to our house and he used to sit there and discuss things and so on. But he was also in exile and so was our ex foreign (minister) yeah what’s his name? uh Alfred Mzoz he used to come to our house in Bombay. He used to stay there with us. He used to sleep in the house you know uh three four days, and then he would go back to Delhi to the foreign office there. It happens all these people are yeah not much. I just recently went to …uh Robben Island and it brought back a whole lot of memories you know. Yeah yeah.
RIS: Uhm what was your career like after your…uh the unbanning of the ANC?
Dr.: Well you know whenever you lived in fear in the Apartheid era. And then you lived in fear post ninety-four because of all the crime and things upsurges that happened. First nearly I was hijacked three times, I’ve been held at gun point nini times. So you know I had it on both sides. First you had the proper fear with the Whites and you have the fear now with the African people you know well a portion of the African people. So uh I just never let it get me down. You know I just stood up and I just keep a straight face and I just forget about it emmediately. And I don’t sort of hold on to it and let it affect me otherwise you can’t live with it. Yeah.
RIS: Uhm do you ever feel that you are uhm your efforts have gone unnoticed?
Dr.: No I don’t think so. Not at all.
RIS: Now in the new South Africa. You don’t see many Indians especially Muslims getting involved in the government,and getting involved in politics. What do you think abuot it you know from your point of view, what do you think the future of our country holds for us Muslims?
Dr.: I just feel it’s very sad that none of us get involved in politics. I think we living in a little emplay because even during the Aparthied times there was some Muslim people amongst us that used to say thank God for Aparthied you know. Therefore we’ve got our own little ghetto that we can live in. You see and we can be with one another. I mean that is how Muslim people think. Generally that even now I find… uh I don’t find Muslims thinking at an intellectual level. Because if you look basically what’s happening today everything is… it’s actually clautrophobic the way they acting. They very small minded, they very narrow minded. I mean if I have to write a death certificate of a Muslim I’ll say he died of narrow mindedness. I mean you know they are so narrow minded. Uh… I don’t see any thinktanks I don’t see… you know in religion if youlook at the prophet… uh this thing there’s a social aspect. I don’t see anything happening on a social scale. I don’t see any thinktanks coming out with new ideas. I don’t see any creativity. I don’t see anybody with innovative. You know it’s basically as if someone has brainwashed you so much, that you just think along this small and narrow mind. You are bombarded by Radio Islam. You go to the mosque they bombard you more. Eventually you come home, mentally you’re a curtain. Nothing in your mind.
RIS: So what advice do you now pass on to us?
Dr.: I would tell you that go out there. There’s a very big world. Just stay with the five pillars and you’ll be very happy, just the five pillars. Forget about the foundations. There are too many foundations. The five pillars. Handle the nicely, and then you’re fine. Don’t… don’t labour them you know. That is part of being a Muslim and just do whatever is necesarry and carry on. I see people sitting and reading the Quraan and they read the Quraan and they say that to recite the Quraan and to hear it loudly, that in itself is Thawaab. It’s a blessing. How can that be? When your creater is a scientist? Your creater must be a scientist. He cannot be anything else. How will he put all the heavens? How will he put all the planets? How will he put all the stars? How will he run everything? The weather you know there’s a million things that have to happen. The rivers have to flow, the mountains have to be there. The ice caps has to be there. He’s got to be a scientist to be able to do that. And you think like a moron. So if you want to be close to God you’ve got to be… try and have all the attributes that he has, understand? I always tell the people in the morning, you’re Muslim, that’s fine. You’ve got your pillars and so on. But put on your shirt and your pants and then go to work. And your asset is being, be sincere, be honest, have intergrity. Be reliable, be trustworthy. Be sensitive to the people of other people and then be… be punctual. I’ve never been late in my life for any appointment. In my life. If I’m late I will phone and say look I’m running five minutes late. I’ll actually phone to say. This is my habit. All my life. Fatima is the same, we never late, we never keep anybody waiting. If I’ve got an appoinment with you, if I’m five minutes late, it means I’m more important than you, tell me? So that’s my appeal. Thae aim is to have an active mind, you must think. The most thing… the biggest thing that differentiates you from an animal, is your mind and your brain. And sometimes you have to think differently from everybody else. You can’t just go with the mill. You have to sit up and say is this guy… what did he say? Does it make sense? And then think in terms of your Almighty, that your almighty. You there are (laugh) I’m digressing abi but you’ve got the athiest, and you’ve got the agnostic. Then you got a theist. A theist, he says God created the heavens and earth, and now he comes below the heavens and is involved in your daily affairs. Did he stand and go to the wee? Did he wear his trousers here above the thing? Did he do this? God is involved in all that. Now God, can God who is such a super being be involved in mundane affairs? That is insulting God. How can you say that God can be involved in daily little mundane affairs? In other words you reducing him to a human. I’m going to make God happy. Is God a little baby? I’m going to make God sad. You know we talk like that without even thinking. We talking about our creater who is a million times more than you and me. Then you get the daist. The daist says no. God created the heavens and the earth but he’s above all that. He lives in the heavens, he does his things. You on earth, his given you your brains, sort out your problems. Therefore you’ve got the African, you’ve got the Chinese, you got the Japanese, you got everything. And the only Asian nation,that I have respect for today is the Japanese. It’s the only other country that has got order. You go there, you can find a train, you can find a telephone, there’s cleanliness, there’s everything that a Muslim is supposed to be. That’s what they are. If you go to the Western countries, exactly the same. If you’re a handicapped, they’ve got a parking bay for you. If you’re handicapped, they’ve got a wheelchair for you, that they’ve invented and operated and they’ve got a ramp that you can use to go. So in other words although you’re handicapped,you can… you still feel like a human. Show me any Asian country, Muslim country, where you can feel that. And we boast and we talk. You see so this is… these are the things that you must get away from. Rise above the rest. Open your eyes and open your mind and say but how can that be? We went to a this thing here, we went here to a…a …a wedding on Sunday. It was Zohr time, everybody made Wudhu. Go in to the bathroom and see what they did to the bathroom. I went and picked up everything because I was ashamed. All the you know hand towels and things like that, so it was like there was a riot. I took everythng and I just put it into the corner. Because if those people had to come and see what are these people upto. Is this what the religion teaches? Sorry you wanted to ask something?
RIS: Uh doctor I want to ask you in terms of Apartheid. When did you start uh having an interest for golf and did the Apartheid ever stop you from uh pursuing a maybe profession or career?
Dr.: I was a very good bowler. I was a very good cricket bowler. I could have made the Springbok side. I really tell you that because I was very very good. But I used to play, I remember I went to Durban, I studied in Durban. Now after school I used to come out and just sit there and watch them on the playing fields. And wish that I could be playing cricket there and showing them you know whatever little skills I had and so on. Because I really wanted to be a bowler. Yeah so in that way I just felt I never had the opportunity, never had the chance. And everytime that I was at school, I always wanted to be in the sport. I wanted to play tennis, I wanted to play hockey, I wanted to… but we couldn’t. It wasn’t allowed. Here Apartheid is, I went to Lusaka to visit my brother in law, just to get out of South Africa. Because it’s stiffling during the Apartheid years. And there he would play. He was playing golf one afternoon, he said come along. And I took a club and I started hitting and I found that I was hitting quite okay you know. And then I came back home to South Africa in the mid seventies, forgot all about it. And then the eighties there was this desire again to go and play. So I used to play on the velds. I used to take a club and just go knock a ball on the veld. I remember I had a seveniron, and we made little holes in the ground in the veld and you know I used to just hit. And then finally we could play at Ohenrimori. But you had to be there at half past four in the morning. We should get up at four o’clock, get the caddie and go there at half past four. I mean you see the caddie disappearing in the mist because there’s no light. And you had to be off there by seven o’clock. And if they saw you there, the Afrikaaners, they really insulted him. They said so many things you know. But it’s the type of game that once you… you always want to play, you want to get somewhere. So you had to duck and dive. Whatever you could to get there. I remember going to Crowngrounds and telling her that like on a Thursday afternoon I’d like to play and they refused. I stood my ground and I said no but I want to play. No you must come on a Monday and play with the caddies. I said I’m sorry I’m a doctor I don’t play with the caddies. And uh on Monday it’s a busy day for me. So then the committee had a meeting. And I was the first guy thet played golf at Crowngrounds during the Apartheid years. And the finally after three or four years there was a Mr. Tate there who was running the whole thing. And uh he said to me, okay doctor you can become a member now if you want to. I said okay I don’t want to become a member, not until it’s open for everybody. You understand? I don’t want preferential treatment so I’ll keep coming on a Thursday and playing. And that is how it went.
Lady: And what about Reshaad?
Dr.: Oh yeah my son Reshaad. I think we made an apointment for him in Vereeniging with a pro, to go and get some lessons and they refused. So then I went and I bought a whole lot of books. And I started studying the books and learning from the books. And I started teaching him from the books. And he came on quite nicely, he was playing quite well and so on. And I bought finally you know you go through so many books. Finally got a book called The Modren Fundamentals Of Golf. I think I got it here somewhere. You can see there’s lines drawn through it, every page, little notes here, there, everywhere. What do we know about golf? You know those years especially. So it’s just through the books you know that I got some incling, some idea. And uh where do you play as well. That one day we went to Durban and uh there was a lady. And uh you know Durban is even worse than Joburgh. So uh I went upto her, I said uh you know I’m from Johannesburgh. I’ve been teaching my son, I don’t know whether I’m on the right track or not, but I see you’re giving lessons here. Can you please just have a look at him you know? And she had a look at him and uh she actually complimented me and said you’ve done a wonderful job. Just carry on with whatever you’re doing, and just let him go and hit more and more balls in the range. But then the structure in South Africa was such that you know he… there’s one tournament a year. You gotta particapate in that tournament, and if you miss it, you miss the cut. You miss it by one or two, you gotta wait another year. And so the years dragged by. And you can’t just make it in the first year, it’s very hard. You need a lot of experience, you need a lot of eexposure and so on. So he was in the uh uh uh under fourteens you know. He was doing very well those years. And then when he grew up, there wa no where for him to go play and no no other Indian players. Because you could only play with the Indians. We didn’t know any Whites of Africans never had… that were playing there that time, so that is how it happened. But him too, it wasn’t easy for him. I remember taking him to..to ..to what is it called here in Vereeniging? The Magobe Fountain. I should tak him on the coldest day of the year. Early morning, when it’s frozen, ice and everything. And I should say lets go and play. And he should freeze, absolutely freeze. And I said it doesn’t matter if it’s cold, it’s cold. So we used to get stones and put it into the oven nd warm it up. And put it into the pockets, and warm your hands with it and now go. And sometimes the water, you could see the ice floating on the water that time of the morning. And he would finish the round and I tell him now you know what cold is, never complain about cold. And I took him once when it was raining the whole day. I made him play the whole day in the rain. So I told him now you know what it is like being… never complain about rain. Then I took him to Durban once. And I was sick, under going an operation and so on. When I got up from my bed. And it was blowing. It was like this on the coast, and I took him there. He was hitting the ball and there was this little fellow. And the wind blows the ball this way and that way, and he sat down and he was crying you know. I said get up and one day you’ll master this course. So we finished everything, and I said now you know what it feels like playing in the wind. Then I took him on an extremely hot day. So mentally, I prepared him in every possible way that I felt that he needed to be a strong person. But generally you see our people are like that. They very weak. Everything is a …a problem. And if I could send that child, I would have sent him to America, to one of those schools in America you know. Where they teach you to be a man. Where nothing is too difficult. You see how many people do you see climbing Mount Everest. Do you ever see an Indian man there? It’s in India. But the Whites are climbing from all. Have you ever seen an Indian climbing a mountain? Why? What’s wrong with us? Look at our Indian team. There’s no discipline. There’s no discipline. And where are we going to learn this? So if you wat to get discipline. In everything there must be discipline. And that’s what gives you strength. Any more questions? Steve Biko, out of all the Apartheid activists, that is the man I admire most. He had no fear. They mutilated him, but he would stand up and say, “I’m not your kaffar, you are not my boss”. And the White man would smack him and hit him. And punch him but he would still get up and say. That is guts.
Mr. Sujee: Jazaakallah
Lady: Let me make tea now
RIS: No aunty
Lady: Your grandfather was a strong man, we know him very well, very punctual, he was somebody
Interveiw with Doctor Jasat and RIS Independent Journalists and Mr. Abdullah Sujee(The underlined words spelling may be wrong)
Dr.: You know first was that uh you know my they kept a watch on what we were doing. My mail was, it went through the senses. The phones were tapped and then of course you know the… I was banned so that I could not move around in this country. I was confined to Johannesburgh for ten years, following that of coure the number of prisons I had to visit.
RIS: What was your attitude like towards politics after those run ins or bad experiences with the law?
Dr.: Sorry repeat that?
RIS: (Repeat)
Dr.: You see for me politics is not a proffesion. It’s a fight against injustice in this world. And a Muslim. To be a true Muslim, you have to fight also for injustice. You know there’s a saying of our Prophet. There’s few stages when you see oppresion one is that you keep quiet and say it’s bad. Second is that you speak out against it that is you take an active part physically to bring about changes. As a Muslim one has no other option but to carry out a struggle against what we thought or atleast what I thought was unfair and unjust in the country of my birth.
RIS: Um do you still have contact with your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?
Dr. Yes I have contact. And I’ve been in, I was in parliament for ten years. Some of them were in parliament. A lot of them are no longer living. They have past on. There is quite a number still around. Some in this area. Take Everton for instance, Suliman Nathie who was the secretary of the council of Indian congress. And then of course Dr. Shibd Salloojee. Parents lived in the Vaal triangle, he’s also still around. Still around, still active. Quite a number of them.
RIS: A side from keeping in contact with people in the government or in parliement. Do you still have contact with your fellow activists and comrades, that may not be in parliament?
Dr.: Yes we still meet them on occasions. You know at functions, at funerals, marriages and social functions. We meet some of them.
RIS: What was your career like after the unbanning of the ANC?
Dr.: Well after the unbanning of the ANC I was elected to parliament. I served ten years in parliament. I was on three committees. First was the health community and then was the sectical coloral committee and the third one, I was appointed by Mr. Mandela on uh called the ethics committee, we should look into functioning or non functioning and corruption of members of parliament.
RIS: Did you ever feel that your efforts may have gone unnoticed?
Dr.: Never felt that way. I mean hundreds of people participated. But the changes that have come about are not through the efforts of one person. It’s not Mandela who brought freedom. It’s the effort of hundreds of people who struggled to bring about this change. So my effort was a minute effort against the struggle of Apartheid to bring about a just society.
RIS: Back to the topics of riots, and could you maybe explain to us any bad sights that you may have seen? Some of the worst riots that you may have been part of or witnessed? And something that we tend to hear and it’s not something very pleasant, something called necklacing, could explain that?
Dr.: No, unfortunately I have never witnessed such necklacing. No, I haven’t so I can’t give you any information on that.
RIS: What about riots, some of the worst ones, could you just tell us really what is was about?
Dr.: Riots. When one went to demonstration, there were police marching and people with batons and that. I was at the congress of the people, where the freedom charter was… uh founded. And I remember that Sunday afternoon hudrends of policemen pinching the grounds in Kliptown, tearing up posters, throwing people around, beating them up. You know because I was there at that historic occasion.
RIS: What’s your veiw on the present South Africa. Do you have hope for it?
Dr.: Absolutely otherwise I wouldn’t be here. I would’ve left this country many years ago. There’s hope, there’s. South Africa has a great future. We’ve only had twelve years of democracy. It has a great future. You’ve got one of the best constitutions, finest constitutions in the world. And things have worked out, you know when the change took place, people were worried. That they would be killed and murdered and they would be raped and their houses looted. Nothing of that sort. It was a revolution without much violence, or very little violence.
RIS: Regarding the youth of South Africa, like uhm us. How do you see us moving towards leadership in this country?
Dr.: Well… uh the said thing is that you haven’t gone through that experience that we went through. So you haven’t felt the anger and the wrath that we felt. But I think that there’s hope for our people. There are no more restrictions. You can go ahead in your studies and whatever path you choose. There’s freeedom in this country. A great future for the young people of this country.
RIS: In terms of, on that point, we don’t really see many Indians and particularly Muslims you know getting involved in government, getting involved in politics. If that was sort of past on to you, who are you going to pass it on to? What are your feelings about this? And I mean you know back to what do you see our future as Muslims and in terms of the youth, what do you see there?
Dr.: The unfortonate thing is that things have been so smooth and calm that there was no need for our young people to struggle. So you know they haven’t gone into that feild. I hope that you know that our people participate in the running of this country. Otherwise we will be marginalised. And our history, the contribution that the Muslim community or the Indian community made will be forgotten. So unless our young people make some interest in the running of the… not politics but the running affairs of this country. It might not be to our disadvantage, you know we will be forgotten as a seection of the community that has lost control of it’s past.
RIS: Generally are you optimistic though, is there hope for us?
Dr.: Yes there is hope for us. There is definitely hope for us.
RIS: What message would you like to share with us as the youth and as the Muslim youth and students. What message would you like to share with us in terms of opportunities that now have shown themselves?
Dr.: The message I would like to give to students is that Islam is a wholistic religion. It’s not only confined to prayers and you know giving alms and looking after the orphans and attaining to the aged. It is about participating in every aspect of life in this country. And as Muslims we should do that. Become part of South Africa and make South Africa a country where people can be proud of and people look up on us as the ideal society and this the youth can make a contribution to.
RIS: Now in terms of our book, and this project that we trying out, we hoping willl be successful. What are your feelings about it? Is there any advice you can pass on?
Dr. Yes, you know a history in this country has been distorted and one sided. We learnt about the Voortrek and the you know Afrikaaners who went into the interland. About the Brittish who came here and took over, but little has been written about the inigenous people of this country. Of the various other communities. And I think it should be recorded and I think you’ll make a contribution to understanding our past and hope for our future. If you have such statements in society.
RIS: Doctor saab in terms of when you were a young man. We all know men loved their sport. So in Apartheid times what was… who was your icon in terms of sport, and in terms of the sports world? And what sports if any do you play?
Dr. Well, you see I grew up in a place called Vrededorp and there was one little ground there not turfed you know. And what would happen is that on Saturday during Winter they would play rugby and on Sunday would be soccer. And in between when the ground was not occupied by others we’d go and play soccer. In the summer of course we played cricket. But most of the cricket played was in the streets of Vrededorp. You know tomatoe boxes would be stumps. And the of course the streets hectored and sometime of course dangerous because the ball would hit the window panes smashing it. Sometimes we had to run for life you see. And that was it. But the two main sports was soccer and cricket. We had no swimmimg pools, never learnt to swim. Various other sports were played. Only got to know about others sports after PT was introduced to this country. Where we knew about netball and hockey and you know the other sports in this country.
RIS: Did you have ant bad experiences when it came to your sports? You know did you have any run ins with the law?
Dr.: Yes. Not with the law but a lot of grazed knees. Bumps on the head, falling on the ground. Those were the experiences that we had. Not really with the law but often with the residents in the area. We played… because it was confined spaces and you know you would hit the ball into someones front room or smash his window. So that is the run ins we had with the… we lived and played.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor obviously when I looked at you. I look at you as… as my senior. And when the pupils look at me, they look at me as their senior. When you look at Mandela, he’s your senioir. How did… what was that relationship between you, Mr. Mandela, late Yusuf dadoo. Explain to us that comaraderie, because that friendship made it such that you people change the history of the country.
Dr.: My rection towards politics was in the 1949 riot in Durban. What had happened was that the Donsol Indian Congress appealed for funds for all the victims, not only Zulus but Indians. And I had heard that they needed people to address envelopes. So I went up to the Congress offices in town. And what they would do was give me a box of envelopess. It was brown envelopes and one page or two pages of the telephone directory you know torn out. And then I would insert and put the appeal in that. Going to the Congress offices I came into contact with Yusuf Dadoo, Malwe Cachalia, Solly Nathie from Everton. There was Ahmed Kathrada, young man. That got me interested, but prior to that, you see my family had the history of some political involvement. My father was brought into this country, or invited into this country by Suliman Asvat. Who was the associate of Ghandi, and at one time chairman of the Congress. That was my one association. The other one was my elder brother Mohammed, went in to the you know, they had a … it was the law against the asiatic representation act. Where they pumped themselves in Durban, Namilo Road. And he was in one of the batches that did that. So there was already that stimulation from the family.
Mr. Sujee: So it was in the family.
Dr.: In a way, yes it was.
Mr. Sujee: Where you ever tortured in prison?
Dr.:No. What had happened was that when we were first arrested, they had actually killed Bapda Sallojee, so many were evicted forth. When they arrested me. They wanted me to make a statement that I wasn’t being tortured. Which I refused to do, but how to say I’ve been unjustifiably arrested. It was called the ninety days. I was picked up under the ninety days. So not really tortured. But some people were tortured. Fortunately I was never tortured.
Mr. Sujee: Do you know of people who were tortured?
Dr.: Yes, I know of people who were tortured. There was a lawyer who had a fear of dogs, and what they would do was, not physically torture but bring a dog into his cell you know. That sort of thing. But others were beaten and physically manged in many ways.
Mr. Sujee: We met with Abdul Samid Karani. I’m sure Dr. Jasat knows his involvment. And he spoke about the neck lacing which was very…
Dr.: He saw that.
Mr. Sujee: He saw that. And one thing he pressed on my, or our mind was that he said in Eskor, there was these huge furnaces. The talk amongst the comrades, they say it was’nt a rumour. It was the talk amongst the comrades that many of the children were actually thrown in that furnace once they were killed. Would you believe something like that?
Dr.: Yes, now the story has now appeared that this doctor what’s his name… Walter Bason was part of the group that would anaesthize these people and throw them into the sea, take them into a plane. A lot of the activists disappeared with no trace of them left. Some would be burried, they have dug up these graves and they have had big burials taking place. So that has taken place.
Mr. Sujee: So this story that Abdul Samid Karani told us, because you see we want to photograph this furnace in Eskor and put that on our front cover. Because when he told me that I said Insha-Allah we must write a book on this because it’s going to disappear. No one will hear the truth. And his daughter, his Attiyah Karani you know that’s howcome she’s here. So if I had to tell you that story, if I was an activist you’d actually believe it? There’s some truth in it?
Dr.: Well, you know I can’t vouch for that. I don’t know about that. Being thrown in the furnace no. Honestly I won’t be able to.
Mr. Sujee: It’s not possibe given what they did?
Dr.: They did bad things. But I wouldn’t, I’m not sure about what they did there you know.
RIS: Uhm you mentioned you know, back to the point where they were very badly beaten and very severely beaten. We also heard that they were beaten to such an extent that some lost their lives, and others at this point have gone unheared.
Dr.: Yes, there’s a number of Muslims that lost their time. One was the Bapda Salloojee who was thrown. There was an Imaam Haroun who was accused of suggesting that he slipped on a soap and killed himself. There was this boy from Azaadville, what’s his name again not Simuljee, he was mudered by the police also. Can’t get his name now. Ahmed Timol yes, he was killed by the police. No the police were brutal, the security police.
Mr. Sujee: They were called the special branch?
Dr.: The special branch. They were absolutely you know ruthless.
Mr. Sujee: When you saw the changes happening in 1994 when Mandela was released. Did you cry out of happiness or was it just… explain your emotion to us you know?
Dr.: You see we never believed that freedom would come in our lifetime, so when this happened… I mean absolutely wonderfull I mean you know you felt that it was worthwhile having struggled for freedom in this country. And to live n this country. You know one becomes today… one can go to any part of the world and you say you from South Africa, you considered, tour reputation is there you see. So it’s something one can be proud to be South African. And also South Africans of Indian origin belonging to the Islamic faith or Muslim faith. Have to be proud of that.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor, when you look at young people like this you know sacrificing their holidays you know and uh wanting to produce a book. And coming to you and getting your story as part of the Vaal Hearings, that’s the title we’ve given it. Did you feel… explain your feelings? Because you must be thinking it cannot be real you know, I never dreamt about this when fighting the struggle.
Dr.: You know I’m quite proud that there’s an awakening amongst our young people. You know that there’s a history or that past which they can be proud of. This must never be lost. And the young people doing this makes me very happy. You know that this is… whatever we did was not in vain. You know it’s going to inspire young people and bring about a society which is far better than we ever thought was possible.
Mr. Sujee: Now you see as a teacher when I talk to these people about Apartheid. Believe me, they tell me sir you’re lying. There wasn’t a que that said whites only. Can you elaborate on that? Because I want it to come from people like yourself because you actually seen it. You’ve witnessed it you know.
Dr.: You see those days you could only go to an Indian school. If you travelled in trams in Johannesburgh, eight portions of the trams was reserved for non whites. And some of the trams the you know eight portions were open so in raining weather the Whites have the priviledge of sitting you know in the shaded… covered portion and you’d sit there. You could not go to use any library. You could not go to any museum. You could not go to any cinema, that was not planned for you, for example if you were an Indian, you could only go to an Indian cinema. Plays that were performed were out of bounce for you and that was it. If you travelled also, in the plane certain seats were reserved for Blacks in South African planes. Trains too, there were separate coaches for Blacks and Whites. So you know everything… and to enter the Post Office you had to enter a separate Post Office. In the area I lived there was a bank called Volkskas bank. There were two entrances, one for Whites and one for Blacks. In the Post Office too, you had a separate counter. And that was it. And of course you couldn’t lived where you liked. You know what they called Group Areas. You know people were confined to an African area, coloured area, or a White area. South Africa was divided in eveything. And then there were loss of opportunities. You couldn’t go to any university. In fact, I was part of a quota system at university. Of the two hundred or more entries into the first year, there was a quota of twelve for so called non Whites. And that would mean Chinese, Coloured, Indians… and Indian. So you had to compete to get in. Wits the only available university. They of course accepted universities for Afrikaaners into an Afrikaans university, Pretoria university, Stellenbosch. All white, you couldn’t go to. Of course years later they did develop an Indian university in Durban. That was the whole set up. You haven’t been… you very lucky you haven’t been through that phase. My daughter and then one day we were gone to the Zoo Lake, we were driving past, there’s a small little playing field here. So they said stop we want to go on to the swings. So I said it’s only for Whites and they said but we not Black. It’s just around the corner we were in the area, but couldn’t go play on the swings.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor Insha-Allah what we hope now is that you can use this as an inspiration to make us meet Mandela. Just to tell him you know that we appreciate your effort because it hasn’t been wasted.
Dr.: What I’m going to suggest is. I want you to send a fax because uh to his secretary Zelda LeGrange. I’ve got the phone number and send uh say the project, you’d like to interview him. See what happens. It should be done by fax hey, send a fax. I’ll give you the number. Not for now. It’s a bit difficult to get hold of him now. He doesn’t see many people but we can make an attempt. He’s quite old now.
(Talking)
Mr. Sujee: Probably just forward it to Desmond Tutu as well.
Dr.: that wouldn’t be so difficult.
INTERVIEW WITH MR 'STANLEY SALEY & SUHAIL WHYTE
Technology: DVD & Audio
Interviewer: Hm okay but now if you look at it from a South African point of view, what are your feelings about the future of our youth of today in terms of not really being apart of politics or the government and not willing to be involved in it, what do you feel about this just South Africa per say?
STANLEY SALEY
You see, I personally feel that every youth especially, more then anything else is the Muslim youth. The Muslim youth can bring about a very big change in this country. You can bring about the change because you've got to do the work of da'wa- is to propagate Islam because this is the ideology that I personally feel that the world needs, that Africa needs that South Africa needs. You will be surprised that how many people throughout today are reverting to Islam because people are seeking these things, they are looking for it. So as Muslims, I mean me as a Muslim, I'll be very honest with you, I am very optimistic as far as the future of this country is concerned. Because I personally feel that the youth of today and the youth that will still come are going to bring about the change, undoubtedly, of course with the help of Allah. So not necessarily in politics but yaw in everything be it political, be it you know social, be it everything.
Interviewer: How do you feel this way though, keeping in mind that we really not getting involved in these types of things we seem to like in previous interviews we come the conclusion that our parents or we have been placed in such comfort zones that we not going out there, we not grabbing the opportunities available to us. You know we not taking them so how to do you sort of see this change happening in the country or for us as Muslims in the future.
STANLEY SALEY
Ya, you see, look; the thing is I mean I would say that you are answering your won question because in this way that look you got to put the effort because you know we can't sit back and say that things will not happen, you've got to make it happen. You see every individual has got to play a role, you see, if you study, look I mean m I'm sure many of you know your Islamic History better than me. But if you into there right, you will find that you know like the Prophet of Islam(May pace be upon him) look at the amount of effort he put in. If you look that you know what he went through in order to bring about you know in order to bring about that social record. It didn't just happen over night, he worked for it. Then eventually he brought fruits to it so in a like fashion I say that one cannot sit back and look things will happen. It won't happen. You've got to make it happen. You see that is the whole idea. Like I said that look I got personally I am you know one of those people who are very optimistic. Like when I look at the youth of today with the modern day technology and with everything that is taking place I find that why not because we are slowly producing that type of thing we are coming about.
Interviewer: It's good to hear that since like everyone else had a very opposite like approach/view about the whole thing. Many other older people felt that us as youth are not taking our stand in society to bring about the change. Its good to hear that there is some hope for us.
STANLEY SALEY
Ya, no, of course, there is a lot of hope for us. Why not? You know, you know, I know, I mean, I see, look, I mean I will be very honest with you. You know I see lot of encouraging signs. Like once there was a lady. I thing she was a lecturer at one of the universities here in South Africa. It’s a Muslim woman and she was on TV you know she was on television and look she was very well/glad. Look she had a headscarf and so on and they kept on having a go at her that why are you wearing this. Look she was a professor right and you know she gave a very beautiful answer. You know what she said? She said look I'm in a classroom and I've got to give a lesson. Since my students, there right she says if I must you know if I must be naked in front of them will they be interested in what I've got to say. They'll only be interested in my body right, so you know this is how she put. She says that you see when I 'm clad this way, she says my students respect me. They listen to what I've got to say. So she put it very well but you see what I'm saying is that that you know one can see these things but look it is happening you know when I take you know I'll be honest with you I take a lot of encouragement from these things.
Interviewer: Understanding what for you, personal question, which policeman in your mind you still remembered that tortured one particular guy that you know is still in your mind that tortured people and did his thing you know.
STANLEY SALEY
Ya, let me think. I'm just thinking about the name right. There was one policeman. Look I,m quoting now. These were guys that were in the Special Branch right. For the head of the Special Branch at that one time with the fellow by the name of Mr Wessels. I think his name was spelt with a "W", W- e- s- s- e- l- s, Wessels. There was Wessels and there was one fellow by the name of Mr Lotters. Then a fellow by the name of Mr Pretorius. There was a fourth man. In any case, I can't remember the fourth one. Now Mr Wessels was the one that used to be very diplomatic. In other words, he would you know like interrogate you in a very diplomatic way. You see Lotter was the one that was you know how would I say? He was very punch hungry you know. Like you know he would just you know any minute you know you could just feel a smack coming to you or a shot coming to you. You know that was Lotter and the third fellow, this Mr Pretorius guy, oh he was very violent. Violent? Ya, very very violent. He would you know he was a fellow you know just want to grab you and bash you up against the wall and everything you know. He was that type of a person and then after them you know when we came to live here in Roshnee, there was a fellow by the name of Mr Baartman. Mr Baartman, yes. This fellow Baartman, I will be very honest with you, he was the one that clapped me you know with the you know he clapped me with the baton. He was a very violent person and then there was one, I don't know what was his surname, but he use to be here at the De Deur Police Station. I can only remember his first name, Mitgerrie. He was also a very very nasty person, not a good person.
Interviewer: So uncle Stanley, do you know any one now in the police force still that played a part in apartheid, that’s still maybe alive that maybe we will be able to contact?
STANLEY SALEY
Here in Roshnee? In anywhere, just in the Vaal?. I mean Muslims that took part here or Muslims and non-Muslims or you mean those that took part in the struggle for apartheid?.
Interviewer: Gee, gee
STANLEY SALEY
Look we had stalwarts like I can look but I think most of them are late and most of them can from Evaton undoubtedly. You know there was a late uncle Bob Asmal. You know this Bob Asmal that sells sheep and cattle and all that. I'm talking about his late father. He was a very great man and there was late Mr Solly Nathie and Oh yes, Dr Patel.
Interviewer: Perhaps you can just do a little spin to the interview. This is Suhail right and his daughter Rehana and I met with him last year Ramadaan for the first time at my aunty's place and we were speaking about this. This when the idea of the "Vaal Hearings" came about and you don't mind if we can put you on foot there. We doing this basically for ourselves.
Interviewer: Suhail, what's your impressions of the whole apartheid issue that hearing of now and the last time as well. Everything for you, you were very quiet, you were close to tears and now that we are here in your father-in-laws house, listening to it. How does it affect you although you were not part of the system in implementing apartheid but you were a beneficiary in a sense. But how do you feel now that you know it really was an eye opening experience to be in our company and listen to us and now that you are part of the Ummah and all of that how do you take response to that?
Suhail: Its very sad of what I have heard happened and things like that. Obviously I was brought up in that as you said on the right side of things. We weren't aware of what was going on you know, we weren't exposed to those things and when we sat and I heard what was going on, experiences people have had it was really, really, it was saddening. I wish I had known more and I wish I could've done more at the time to sort these things out. At the time you know.
Interviewer: Did you ever witness any of these things, crude happenings?
Suhail Nothing, nothing at all. Like I said we were like in the Whites only areas. We would go to school, we would come back and we would like be in a like safe haven that we were in. Like you know we were never exposed to these things.
Interviewer: So that you just sort of heard about it?
Suhail : We didn't even hear about it. The first time I heard about it was when we went for a braai in Ramadaan and I heard all these stories. It was like it was shocking to hear what was happening. You know, and I didn't know what to say and respond because it was just overwhelming at that time.
Interviewer: So what exactly were you told as a young boy about what was happening in your country that you didn't know about what you were told?
Suhail It was never really discussed. We always we knew that there was the Blacks only and then the Whites only. To put it plain and simple like that. But it really wasn't discussed the reason behind it. I went to the army and it wasn't even discussed there, you know there must have been underlying reasons behind what we were doing but it wasn't openly discussed as listen this is that may be I was ignorant to the whole situation. I don't know.
Interviewer: So not even amongst your friends did you say ….. either?
Suhail : I don't know, I don't think but so look we were in a little community and just Whites only. That was it has maids and that within our community and work with us and we never witnessed any violence and anything bad could happen. You know and the TV I'm sure cut it all out and we didn't see it either.
Interviewer: So what is the feeling amongst your community members when you heard apartheid is coming to an end now and Nelson Mandela is being freed. What is the feelings and the atmosphere like within your community?
Suhail : There was lots of doubts of what is going to happen and people not sure and that everything is changing and all of that but I never had a problem with colour - never seen colour – and within our family and within our community there were lots of questions but there weren't any real concerns or any real worry to what is going to happen, you know or lets wait and see to what is going to happen from there and having said that I've been traveled to about 17 countries and South Africa is the best to be in. I don't want to be anywhere else and my recent but not so recent about two years ago we reverted to Islam and the community that we are in is overwhelming. We were close community as a White community but the Indian community where I am now is really closer and that it feels right you know it's good.
Interviewer: from your side what advice you can offer to bring South Africa higher and to take it more out of its third world image that it is walking out of but what is your advice to us?
Suhail : the thing I have battled and at the moment I don't know if it is selfish but this whole B.E.E thing and I understand the concept of B.E.E and I'm fully for it but also I feel at out sometimes like short, give the people the advantage, give him the opportunity and also don’t cute out at the same time. I was involved in it and I'm sure I've benefited from the whole situation and it wasn't me who did the whole thing you know so just to find the balance. I think once we can find that and put everybody's mind at rest little and go well from there – inshallah.
Interviewer: Suhail, this exercise we trying to implement is to bring the classroom outside and take what is outside into the classroom we're teaching the novel "Cry The Beloved Country" next term and your experience and the experience that your father-in-law has –how do you find this type of activity- do you think it will enrich the pupils experience in the classrooms?
Suhail : Ya, I'm sure its good to let the people know what's happened out there obviously to learn not only from your mistakes but from other peoples mistake once you've learnt those mistakes then maybe go as a person as community as a country – I'm sure it will be good – ya.
Interviewer: Last conclusion – any last messages, feelings or memories that you may have because – in conclusion anything you liked to share with us, to end it off- any advice.
S.Saley: There is one more name you must put down there that I have great admiration – that is one person you must mention and I have great admiration for his Dr Ram Saloojee – that's his initials.
Interviewer: This is just a little token – I hope you will appreciate it – can we share it – is it all mine?
And as Mr Sujee said we connect these stories because we just find that there is so much of this history and we don't want it to be lost. Okay, just briefly another reason why we putting this book together.
Interviewer: When the word apartheid is heard, what is your most significant memory of the entire era. What comes to mind, almost immediately?
Kajee: I'll tell you a little story. I grew in a little town called Schweizer-reneke. My father's shop is the first shop when you enter town. As a young boy – I'm sitting one day in those days at nine o' clock a siren used to go and after nine no blacks were allowed in town. Now what use to happen is that parents should send their children to do a bit of shopping. I was standing outside on the stoep and I saw these youngsters walking and they were just at the edge of town, sort of you know. After that its veld and then obviously they'd be home. The police van came because they were still you know not out of town so to speak. They picked them up, threw them in and as a young man, I stand and thinking what the parents of these children must be thinking. Where are our children where are our kids? And some how something disturbing you know that memory has never left me. There after over the years I've always you know sort of kept an eye on what was happening politically. My uncle Ameen, I don't know if you are aware of him, he was an activist, he used to be with Mandela. Then I had Kathy Khatarada, comes from Schweizer-reneke, that's where I come from. And as a young boy I used to go fishing with the late doctor Dadoo.I don't know if you guys heard of Doctor Dadoo. I was a young boy obviously and they used to sit and talk. I used to hang around there and listen to what they have to say and all of these things you know sort of interested me because there was this whole issue of justice you always felt that and to this day I always say in fact one of the sayings that I always you know quote whenever I speak to anybody I say "In absence of justice there is no Islam and I maintain that and I maintain that till the day I die and you know people remember that if there is no justice because in all the works that I have read, I have yet to come across something so powerful. You can read the aayat on Justice. Allah says and I quote "do justice even if it is against your own self. Do justice even if it is against your own next of kin. In other words, your mother, father, sister, brother. Do justice not for the sake of experiencing but for the love of Allah. There has been thousands of memories thereafter obviously you know because then something steed inside you and you are never the same. I'm talking about, I was a really young fellow, I wasn't a big guy then. I still had to go to high school. I'm talking of I was probably in standard 4 or 5 whatever. I hope that answers your question.
Interviewer: Did you in anyway have a run in with the law at that time?
Kajee: Oh yes!
Interviewer: Yeah that's interesting infect.
Kajee: Okay I'll give you, you see all the books. Ok not all the books. A lot of the books were band in those days. So you couldn't obviously, at that time we had the likes of Steven Biko. You must have heard of him. Oh well you have Alan Paton he was busy with that book called "Cry the Beloved Country." But there was another book that I really loved about hi. But now that we speaking about the run in with the law. What had actually happened was just around 76's we use to go into the township now, I don’t know if you guys had met uncle Stanley, Baboo Kajeee, Yusuf Jackison, we were the guys who use to go out there in the township. I was just speaking, I attended a wedding last weekend, I met up with shorty Baboo Kajee. He belonged to what was then called the M.Y.M- the Muslim Youth Movement. At one stage we took about 40 young girls, just like you, to Durban. A dilapidated combie that we bought just for R250.00. You can imagine that thing we had to go on. But what had happened is I went into the township and we would speak to the black youngsters. We were speaking about this whole issue on the Afrikaans language now the most hated thing. I respect, the most hated thing on God's planet as far as I'm concern, is a pimp. One who will sell his own people for a price. Somebody sold me, they picked me up. I don’t know if you guys had the opportunity to meet Baboo Kajee, well you can ask him about this and he will add the last part to it. In any event in the days of apartheid we as blacks could not own a shop. So we had to have what they called a "White Norman." In other words white were the boss of the shop. Every morning we knew that wasn’t true but you know that was the law. We had a Mrs Foss that worked for us. On a morning, we had a little shop called "Car Watch." So the law came and picked me up. So at the time they picked me up they wouldn't tell me what it was all about. So I told Mrs Foss I'll be there just now. You know you stand in the shop. So as we left the shop, there were 3 of them or whatever the number is. In any event the guy spoke to me, this policeman spoke to me in English and I obviously replied in English and he continued speaking to me in English around the block. Now we going towards the police station. Three quarter way through he asked me something in Afrikaans - just one sentence. Now I grew up in a little town called Schweizer- Reneke. Now in that town even amongst ourselves we spoke Afrikaans. I'm what you would say an "Afrikaans twee tale." I speak Afrikaans language quite fluently, so when he spoke to me in Afrikaans, before I could reply, he asked me something again in English and I replied in English, not aware that he was playing a game with me. In any event we got to the police station. He seated me, the guy in front, the guy looks at me he says why don’t you want to speak Afrikaans? So I'm thinking… I said but you have been speaking English to me. So he tells me so are you calling me a liar? So I'm thinking now when this guy did this and I couldn't remember that was one particular sentence. So he asked the guy behind didn't I ask him so I turned around. When I turned around, this guy pulled me a shot, he smacked me "paah". Don't turn around he said. So he said , yes he spoke to you in Afrikaans but you didn't reply, you spoke in English. Well this thing carried on for a little while you know smacking and questioning. In any event they accused me and as usual you know these days it is a common thing wherever, no matter what. You know I was looking at a movie. My son gave it to me. It's about these youngsters from Pakistan, actually from London who were kept at Guantanamo Bay. I was looking at the whole way in which they interrogate them. I thought to myself that it is unreal that if I look back, that is exactly how they did it. So basically they want to know who's you leader. I mean who's your leader. We've got no leader. In other words what they are really saying to me that you are incapable of formulating your own principles, of thinking for yourself. There must be a leader who's instigating you to do whatever you are doing. I said I got no leader. What leader are you talking about? In any event they turned around and said there is a guy that is standing behind this door who is a witness to the fact that you were there and you did this. I said to him it's your word against mine and I got a couple more smacks because I was not supposed to question him. In any event it was the month of Ramadaan and no word of lie, I'm not a brave person. I'm like everybody else, I'm an ordinary, normal character. I was fasting that day, it was Ramadaan. Somehow there was a quietness. Honestly everything happened to be happening in slow motion. Nothing seemed to bother me, nothing seemed to trouble me. I was not scared of them at all. I was speaking to may Creator in my mind. I read a lot of poetry and these were the things that you know kept me going. In any event eventually they decided that you know, lock him up. They took me and they took my finger prints.
Then there was this policeman who used to come to the shop and he use to buy little things and he walked pass. "Hi. Hello, what are you doing here? , he asked. I said I had a problem. He said that he would sort it out. He goes there, comes back and says that I should tell them the truth and it's all over. I asked what truth is there to tell. I said whatever I had to say. He told me not to mess with his system. I told him that I never asked for his help and that you guys were going to do what you have to because you are the law. He used that "f" word and said that he was going to "f" me up. I said to him that I was in his territory and he could do with me whatever he pleased. At that point, Baboo Kajee, who I was speaking of and late Mohammed Tayob walked in. Mohammed Tayob was very good with the law and he walked in and had a couple of words and eventually called me and asked if I was fasting. I said yes, He said OK. Mr Tayob promised that at the end of Ramadaan I will come back and report this…
Interviewer: Firstly, I want to than you for giving us your time. Jazakallah. This is our token of appreciation. Thank you for giving us your time.
Interviewer: Alright now on apartheid, your role in general apartheid era. Firstly we would like to hear from you, what was the most significant event that you recall when the word apartheid comes to mind. That era when you hear that, what's the first event that comes to mind?
Kajee: You see the first thing that comes to mind is when I was very young and we were deprived – to say that you know there were place where we could not go to. To give a simple example: like Vereeniging town. People must have seen a lot of parks there. You know we couldn't go to any of those parks because the parks were for Whites only. This thing went to such an extent that you found in the Vaal Triangle, for example, there were a lot of schools, plenty of high schools, a lot of primary schools and so on. Yet, we only had one school and that school was only a primary school. It was only up to standard 5 or 6 and when we finished primary school and we had to go to high school then we had to go to Johannesburg. It was a very tiring thing because we use to leave in the dark and we use to come back in the dark because we had to travel by train at that time. This train stopped at every little station that was between Vereeniging and Johannesburg. We used to leave very early in the morning to make it by 8 o' clock at school. Coming back, again we could only board the train lets say it was always normally by 4 o'clock half 4 in the afternoon. So by the time we got home it was dard again you know, and you were tired. There wasn't much you could do.
Interviewer: As an activist did you ever have a run in with the law at any time? Any bad experiences, feelings towards the law?
Kajee: Ya, well let me put it this way that you see at that time assuming if you spoke out against apartheid or if you spoke out against any of the authorities that was committed either than government, you had to be very careful in front of whom you were speaking. What would happen is sometimes you are not aware and whatever you have spoken, this entire conversation goes to the special branch police. Now we use to have that time what you call "The Special Branch Police" and when this information gets to them and you could be rest assured that within a day they'll be right at your doorstep and pick you up. They'll pick you up and they take you away and they'll interrogate you, and then they'll quote exactly word-for-word whatever you said. This was one of the things.
Interviewer: So it was like spies sitting in your company that would then go wand …
kajee: Yes, yes. That was one of the things, yes. The other thing that I could not forget and will always remain in my mind is in 1976. We were playing cricket and we belonged to an association that was opposing the government. We were having an inter-provincial game between Transvaal and Natal. We hosted the game in Johannesburg. I was then the vice president of the Transvaal cricket team association. That particular evening we were feeding our guests from Natal with supper. We were picked up by the police and taken to John Vorster Square at that time. When we got to John Vorster Square, they put us in a lift. This lift didn't go up, it went down about three or four floors. When we were there they put us in a room and they just left us there, but what happened was that there was another room next to the room in which we were. There was a wall separating the two rooms. In this other room they brought in black children. I'm not exaggerating, but you knew they were children. I would say ages maybe between 9 – 14, little children. We could hear screams. They were taking these children and they were bashing them against the wall. They were saying that these are children that are activists because at that time in 1976 there was the Soweto riots. These riots were caused by the school children. The riots were of course a story. The government was forcing that education must be done through Afrikaans and the children opposed this and this was the Soweto uprising.
In 1976 and we were at the wrong place at the right time or whatever, but we actually witnessed this interrogation and this torture that was taking place. How they were treating little children that were innocent.
Now there were many incidents that took place, like for example, they use to have what they call the pass laws. Now a pass is like what you and I would call today identity book. But this particular pass book was a very very big and bulky thing and it was only meant that the blacks must carry this and like we use to employ domestic servants like we still do. But you could not keep a domestic servant in your premises. Like he or she could not sleep at your place. When it gets dark they have to go home and that they have to be registered. If they are not registered, that means that you have employed them and you haven't registered them that means that they are I mean er you are employing them illegally so to say. And if and we use to get this type of raids. The police used to raid our homes. They would come right into your house and the whole excuse was that they looking for domestics. I'm not exaggerating but at once they came right into my father's bedroom at night and they went under the bed to see if we were not hiding the domestics. Now these are all types of things that took place and Like I mentioned to you earlier that whenever we opposed it or we said anything against then you would also become the victim.
Interviewer: Em, did you personally ever sort of feel the abuse?
Kajee: Yes,yes,yes. This happened once, you see I was belonging; this was actually quite a later stage in my life that I joined a movement called the Muslim Youth Movement, the MYM. What happened was that I was once picked up. They picked me up and they took me into the interrogation room and this fellow was passing questions such that the MYM is completely opposed to the government and that the MYM is an organisation that wants to see to the overthrow of the government and so on and so forth. As much as I tried to convince him that this was not the line of the MYM. Then he had the Holy Quraan in his office and he took his filthy hand and he started bashing the Quraan on top. He said in Afrikaans; I wouldn't really like to quote what he said because they were very very derogatory. But it was something to the effect that you know you Muslims believe in this nonsense or shit whatever you call it and he was banging the Quraan and when he was banging the Quraan and I lost my cool and I retaliated. When I retaliated to him I didn't notice another one walking and he had a bay ton in his hand and he clapped me with his bay ton. Still do you know I didn't jut give in to it because deep in my heart I felt that nobody insults my Quran and you know to get away with it. This is one of those interrogations that I went through. The other one was like I mentioned to you earlier that when we were arrested for that cricket thing in John Vorster Square. What they did was they would take a chalk you know and they make a square on the floor, a small little square and they tell you to stand on that. You know you must just stand in that square you not allowed to move. You must stand on that spot one way and they leave you to stand there and what happened was I was standing all the time and you feel very lame afterwards. I wanted to I mean I wanted to urinate. I wanted to go to the toilet and I couldn't because he wouldn't allow me and I just stood on that spot eventually, to what an extend, that I wet myself completely. This was a very you know I would say a very nasty incident you know that happened then. What they did was they just you know they would just keep you there and all the time they kept questioning you. You give them an answer, no your answer is not good enough. Then on your answer they ask you another question and they kept carrying on like that. This thing must have carried on for I think like 36-48 hours. Eventually when they didn't find anything you know. I don't know, maybe the help of Allah you know they released us.
Interviewer: So in this MYM more-or-less how many members did it include?
Kajee: you mean when we were there in the cricket thing?
Interviewer: yeah, no the Muslim Youth Women. The MYM, how many members did it consist of?
Kajee: the MYM consist of quite a big organization. It was MYM of South Africa. I was actually the chairman of the Vereeniging branch. We had branches all over South Africa, the MYM.
Interviewer: What was your attitude towards politics after these bad experiences? Did you become despondent? Did you not want to become involve anymore? What was your attitude like?
Kajee: You mean whether I'll still take part in politics?
Interviewer: ya, ya, ya
Kajee: Well look lemme put it to you this way. You see the politics that I advocate today is I advocate the politics of Islam. I don’t look at Islam purely just as a religion but I look at Islam as a way of life. That Islam constitutes everything it constitutes a family life. Islam is in your work place. Its in your how would I say, you know it's in your work place, it's outside, it's all over because Allah is all knowing and all seeing. The most important thing that what I aspire for, I mean you know I mean this is my inspiration in life is to establish Allah's deen on earth. This is the ultimate desire that I have and of course over and above that I would still feel that you know is to unite the entire Muslim Ummah under one banner that is the banner of Lailahah Ililah.
Interviewer: Uncle… if I can ask you a question. I remember sitting here when I was still at school in the 80's, and you were very involved with the political movements even then. Describe to us your your your involvement you know the fact that you were part of the MYM yet at the same time you were part of other structures as well as that were affiliated to the ANC perhaps the MDM, the mass democratic movement or you know because the boycotts that were involved and again you witnessed many people chasing you, many police hitting people because many children besides these here, they think that apartheid is a myth you know. It's a legend it never sort of… Can you point that picture for us of how you actually were involved beyond the MYM?
Kajee: See like I mentioned when I was young you know look there was always seniors and to answer your question you see at that time the seniors were mostly affiliated to the ANC, the African National Congress. The ANC I'm sure many of you know was a Banned body, a banned organization. But what use to happen was people use to work very very secretly. Now we were one of the you know the the er letter carriers or the pamphlet carriers let us put it that way. You see you that I mean that would come in from outside. There was one of my colleagues I don't know how many of you may have heard of him or may have not heard of him. For the person by the name of Ahmed Timol. Now Ahmed Timol and myself we studied together. We were in high school together in Johannesburg. Ahmed became a teacher you see and what happened at that time they could Ahmed you see and they caught him with a lot of literature and when they caught him with this literature you see they took him away and in the evaluation they were trying to feed you know, dish out things from him which they could not and eventually look I,m er still convinced up till today that Ahmed Timol was killed by them. That they threw him down when they could not get the information that maybe they wanted. Like if you take, oh yes, one of the other things I forgot to mention to you was that I even went on a post there education. Because then I went to a school that was a private school. The school that was run by the Congress. But it was then called the Transvaal Indian Congress, TIC. The TIC was a body that was affiliated to the ANC. This school was in Johannesburg. It was like a private school. We had multi-racial teachers. We had all types of teachers teaching us. I can even quote to you that if you look at the two brothers that sit in parliament. One is named Mr Essop Pahad who is in the president's office and his brother, Aziz Pahad, who is a deputy foreign minister. Both of them were with me at the same school. They both graduated from there. They finished there matric there.
There was an incident which also I must mention to you, that when it came about, I think it was in1958 when the call came that we must boycott potatoes. Now what happened at that time, you see every child that was going to school, everyone, be it in the primary school or high school. You know when you had a school break then the children couldn't do without chips. All use to go to the fish and chips shop you know and buy chips. The call came that you must boycott potatoes and we all wandered why you must boycott potatoes. But then the truth came to us that the reason is that potatoes were grown mostly in Bethal. You call it today the Mpumalanga province. Potatoes came from there and most of the labour that was used on the potato farms were convict labour. They use to take the convicts and make the convicts work. They use to beat the convicts up and there were many convicts that were killed and they were buried on those farms and on top of their dead bodies they were growing potatoes. So this is when the call came that we had to boycott potatoes. We were very heavily involved at that time together of course with Essop Pahad and Aziz Pahad when we were going to the government schools and we were telling the pupils not to eat potatoes and then the matter went to the police. The police came and we had to run. Fortunately you know we did not get arrested you know we escaped arrest and so on.
Interviewer: Do you still have any contacts with Aziz Pahad and his brother?
Kajee: Yes, yes.
Interviewer: What about other fellow activists? Do you still keep in contact with them and how?
Kajee: Ya, we whenever we meet you know we still speak, discuss there's a lot of things you know that we discuss and so on.
Interviewer: Then what was your career like after the unbanning of the ANC?
Kajee: Look my career is been the same, I've been in business you know and that's it. But like I say look of course you know you do a lot of part in community here. In Roshnee you know so you know with sports and education and all those things you and er very er I would say very very recently because it was just before apartheid went did the Roshnee High School here had a principal by the name of Mr Percy Peters. I don't know if any of you heard of him. But there was a principal here by the name of Mr Percy Peters and I was on the education committee at that time. That was about the only school we had in Roshnee. It was a primary and high school all in one. All the time what we were trying you we were trying to sort of get the best for our children you know. On many things we were opposed and opposed by none other than the principal… that was the first thing. The second thing was that he was very very anti-Muslim or anti-Islam. I mean, I mean this is a fact. What happened that time there was a little boy you know that come from a farm and they came to reside here in Roshnee. Now according to the Standerton norms that time this little boy, his granny was an Indian, Muslim Indian and his grandfather I think was a black person. So obviously his mother was you know a mixture. Now that wanted to put this little boy in school and they came to me and I said why not. I said at that time the government said that education is compulsory. I said well if eduction is compulsory then this child should be accepted in this school. I took this child to the school to enroll him. What happened was I was asked a lot of nasty questions you know like I was asked the question who is the child's father. As much as I tried to tell the principal, I said look the child don't have a father. Thinking that he would understand but no he kept insisting. Eventually there was a very nasty incident that took place between me and the school and I had a go at him and I said you know on one hand your government claims that education is compulsory on the other hand you got so many red tapes here, now what is it that you are up to? You want to educate the children or you don't want to educate the children. After I said all that again like I mentioned you know I was picked up by the security guards for having a go at the principal.
Interviewer: Do you ever feel that your efforts in fighting against apartheid may have gone unnoticed in some way or another?
Kajee: Look the most important thing that I look at it this way that I'm not here to look for credit or for anything like that. I personally feel that you know if the efforts that we put in and if that efforts brought any fruits and if it brought about improvement then I would say that that is a reward, I would say that that is more reward than anything else.
Interviewer: Hmm, that's most important. Now if you look at it sort of if you look at it in a different light, at the moment, presently we don't seem to see many Indians and particularly Muslims involved in politics any longer. What is your feeling about this and is there any advice that you would like to share with us in terms of getting involved in and being a part of it?
Kajee: You see what I personally think that er this is how I'm viewing situation right now. There is a very big conspiracy that's taking place in the world. Now, this conspiracy is to such an extent that I'm sure you know that many of you young people must be noticing this to that every second Muslim for a Muslim you know is regarded as a terrorist or as an insurgent. More than anything else you see what I see through this is this is nothing but to bring about a new world order. This is definitely taking place. Now in order to get about this new world order the biggest stumbling block is Islam. Islam is the biggest stumbling block and moreover the Muslims. If you take our learned scholars today irrespective of which country they are, irrespective of which school of thought they belong, the mere fact that whoever got the Quraan and have got the Hadith and so are people that can enlighten you, are people that can take you to the truth and they can warn you against a lot of atrocities and so on that's taking place. Now how to get rid of this, you see its simple what do they do is that because they are in charge of the media so the media is controlled by them whether it's in South Africa. I can tell you safely that in the whole of Africa as well as in the whole of the Middle East as well as the whole of Europe, the whole of America and so on the media is controlled by them. Be it the newspapers be it the radios be it the television and so on…
Interviewer: Hm okay but now if you look at it from a South African point of view, what are your feelings about the future of our youth of today in terms of not really being apart of politics or the government and not willing to be involved in it, what do you feel about this just South Africa per say?
STANLEY SALEY
You see, I personally feel that every youth especially, more then anything else is the Muslim youth. The Muslim youth can bring about a very big change in this country. You can bring about the change because you've got to do the work of da'wa- is to propagate Islam because this is the ideology that I personally feel that the world needs, that Africa needs that South Africa needs. You will be surprised that how many people throughout today are reverting to Islam because people are seeking these things, they are looking for it. So as Muslims, I mean me as a Muslim, I'll be very honest with you, I am very optimistic as far as the future of this country is concerned. Because I personally feel that the youth of today and the youth that will still come are going to bring about the change, undoubtedly, of course with the help of Allah. So not necessarily in politics but yaw in everything be it political, be it you know social, be it everything.
Interviewer: How do you feel this way though, keeping in mind that we really not getting involved in these types of things we seem to like in previous interviews we come the conclusion that our parents or we have been placed in such comfort zones that we not going out there, we not grabbing the opportunities available to us. You know we not taking them so how to do you sort of see this change happening in the country or for us as Muslims in the future.
STANLEY SALEY
Ya, you see, look; the thing is I mean I would say that you are answering your won question because in this way that look you got to put the effort because you know we can't sit back and say that things will not happen, you've got to make it happen. You see every individual has got to play a role, you see, if you study, look I mean m I'm sure many of you know your Islamic History better than me. But if you into there right, you will find that you know like the Prophet of Islam(May pace be upon him) look at the amount of effort he put in. If you look that you know what he went through in order to bring about you know in order to bring about that social record. It didn't just happen over night, he worked for it. Then eventually he brought fruits to it so in a like fashion I say that one cannot sit back and look things will happen. It won't happen. You've got to make it happen. You see that is the whole idea. Like I said that look I got personally I am you know one of those people who are very optimistic. Like when I look at the youth of today with the modern day technology and with everything that is taking place I find that why not because we are slowly producing that type of thing we are coming about.
Interviewer: It's good to hear that since like everyone else had a very opposite like approach/view about the whole thing. Many other older people felt that us as youth are not taking our stand in society to bring about the change. Its good to hear that there is some hope for us.
STANLEY SALEY
Ya, no, of course, there is a lot of hope for us. Why not? You know, you know, I know, I mean, I see, look, I mean I will be very honest with you. You know I see lot of encouraging signs. Like once there was a lady. I thing she was a lecturer at one of the universities here in South Africa. It’s a Muslim woman and she was on TV you know she was on television and look she was very well/glad. Look she had a headscarf and so on and they kept on having a go at her that why are you wearing this. Look she was a professor right and you know she gave a very beautiful answer. You know what she said? She said look I'm in a classroom and I've got to give a lesson. Since my students, there right she says if I must you know if I must be naked in front of them will they be interested in what I've got to say. They'll only be interested in my body right, so you know this is how she put. She says that you see when I 'm clad this way, she says my students respect me. They listen to what I've got to say. So she put it very well but you see what I'm saying is that that you know one can see these things but look it is happening you know when I take you know I'll be honest with you I take a lot of encouragement from these things.
Interviewer: Understanding what for you, personal question, which policeman in your mind you still remembered that tortured one particular guy that you know is still in your mind that tortured people and did his thing you know.
STANLEY SALEY
Ya, let me think. I'm just thinking about the name right. There was one policeman. Look I,m quoting now. These were guys that were in the Special Branch right. For the head of the Special Branch at that one time with the fellow by the name of Mr Wessels. I think his name was spelt with a "W", W- e- s- s- e- l- s, Wessels. There was Wessels and there was one fellow by the name of Mr Lotters. Then a fellow by the name of Mr Pretorius. There was a fourth man. In any case, I can't remember the fourth one. Now Mr Wessels was the one that used to be very diplomatic. In other words, he would you know like interrogate you in a very diplomatic way. You see Lotter was the one that was you know how would I say? He was very punch hungry you know. Like you know he would just you know any minute you know you could just feel a smack coming to you or a shot coming to you. You know that was Lotter and the third fellow, this Mr Pretorius guy, oh he was very violent. Violent? Ya, very very violent. He would you know he was a fellow you know just want to grab you and bash you up against the wall and everything you know. He was that type of a person and then after them you know when we came to live here in Roshnee, there was a fellow by the name of Mr Baartman. Mr Baartman, yes. This fellow Baartman, I will be very honest with you, he was the one that clapped me you know with the you know he clapped me with the baton. He was a very violent person and then there was one, I don't know what was his surname, but he use to be here at the De Deur Police Station. I can only remember his first name, Mitgerrie. He was also a very very nasty person, not a good person.
Interviewer: So uncle Stanley, do you know any one now in the police force still that played a part in apartheid, that’s still maybe alive that maybe we will be able to contact?
STANLEY SALEY
Here in Roshnee? In anywhere, just in the Vaal?. I mean Muslims that took part here or Muslims and non-Muslims or you mean those that took part in the struggle for apartheid?.
Interviewer: Gee, gee
STANLEY SALEY
Look we had stalwarts like I can look but I think most of them are late and most of them can from Evaton undoubtedly. You know there was a late uncle Bob Asmal. You know this Bob Asmal that sells sheep and cattle and all that. I'm talking about his late father. He was a very great man and there was late Mr Solly Nathie and Oh yes, Dr Patel.
Interviewer: Perhaps you can just do a little spin to the interview. This is Suhail right and his daughter Rehana and I met with him last year Ramadaan for the first time at my aunty's place and we were speaking about this. This when the idea of the "Vaal Hearings" came about and you don't mind if we can put you on foot there. We doing this basically for ourselves.
Interviewer: Suhail, what's your impressions of the whole apartheid issue that hearing of now and the last time as well. Everything for you, you were very quiet, you were close to tears and now that we are here in your father-in-laws house, listening to it. How does it affect you although you were not part of the system in implementing apartheid but you were a beneficiary in a sense. But how do you feel now that you know it really was an eye opening experience to be in our company and listen to us and now that you are part of the Ummah and all of that how do you take response to that?
Suhail: Its very sad of what I have heard happened and things like that. Obviously I was brought up in that as you said on the right side of things. We weren't aware of what was going on you know, we weren't exposed to those things and when we sat and I heard what was going on, experiences people have had it was really, really, it was saddening. I wish I had known more and I wish I could've done more at the time to sort these things out. At the time you know.
Interviewer: Did you ever witness any of these things, crude happenings?
Suhail Nothing, nothing at all. Like I said we were like in the Whites only areas. We would go to school, we would come back and we would like be in a like safe haven that we were in. Like you know we were never exposed to these things.
Interviewer: So that you just sort of heard about it?
Suhail : We didn't even hear about it. The first time I heard about it was when we went for a braai in Ramadaan and I heard all these stories. It was like it was shocking to hear what was happening. You know, and I didn't know what to say and respond because it was just overwhelming at that time.
Interviewer: So what exactly were you told as a young boy about what was happening in your country that you didn't know about what you were told?
Suhail It was never really discussed. We always we knew that there was the Blacks only and then the Whites only. To put it plain and simple like that. But it really wasn't discussed the reason behind it. I went to the army and it wasn't even discussed there, you know there must have been underlying reasons behind what we were doing but it wasn't openly discussed as listen this is that may be I was ignorant to the whole situation. I don't know.
Interviewer: So not even amongst your friends did you say ….. either?
Suhail : I don't know, I don't think but so look we were in a little community and just Whites only. That was it has maids and that within our community and work with us and we never witnessed any violence and anything bad could happen. You know and the TV I'm sure cut it all out and we didn't see it either.
Interviewer: So what is the feeling amongst your community members when you heard apartheid is coming to an end now and Nelson Mandela is being freed. What is the feelings and the atmosphere like within your community?
Suhail : There was lots of doubts of what is going to happen and people not sure and that everything is changing and all of that but I never had a problem with colour - never seen colour – and within our family and within our community there were lots of questions but there weren't any real concerns or any real worry to what is going to happen, you know or lets wait and see to what is going to happen from there and having said that I've been traveled to about 17 countries and South Africa is the best to be in. I don't want to be anywhere else and my recent but not so recent about two years ago we reverted to Islam and the community that we are in is overwhelming. We were close community as a White community but the Indian community where I am now is really closer and that it feels right you know it's good.
Interviewer: from your side what advice you can offer to bring South Africa higher and to take it more out of its third world image that it is walking out of but what is your advice to us?
Suhail : the thing I have battled and at the moment I don't know if it is selfish but this whole B.E.E thing and I understand the concept of B.E.E and I'm fully for it but also I feel at out sometimes like short, give the people the advantage, give him the opportunity and also don’t cute out at the same time. I was involved in it and I'm sure I've benefited from the whole situation and it wasn't me who did the whole thing you know so just to find the balance. I think once we can find that and put everybody's mind at rest little and go well from there – inshallah.
Interviewer: Suhail, this exercise we trying to implement is to bring the classroom outside and take what is outside into the classroom we're teaching the novel "Cry The Beloved Country" next term and your experience and the experience that your father-in-law has –how do you find this type of activity- do you think it will enrich the pupils experience in the classrooms?
Suhail : Ya, I'm sure its good to let the people know what's happened out there obviously to learn not only from your mistakes but from other peoples mistake once you've learnt those mistakes then maybe go as a person as community as a country – I'm sure it will be good – ya.
Interviewer: Last conclusion – any last messages, feelings or memories that you may have because – in conclusion anything you liked to share with us, to end it off- any advice.
S.Saley: There is one more name you must put down there that I have great admiration – that is one person you must mention and I have great admiration for his Dr Ram Saloojee – that's his initials.
Interviewer: This is just a little token – I hope you will appreciate it – can we share it – is it all mine?
And as Mr Sujee said we connect these stories because we just find that there is so much of this history and we don't want it to be lost. Okay, just briefly another reason why we putting this book together.
Interviewer: When the word apartheid is heard, what is your most significant memory of the entire era. What comes to mind, almost immediately?
Kajee: I'll tell you a little story. I grew in a little town called Schweizer-reneke. My father's shop is the first shop when you enter town. As a young boy – I'm sitting one day in those days at nine o' clock a siren used to go and after nine no blacks were allowed in town. Now what use to happen is that parents should send their children to do a bit of shopping. I was standing outside on the stoep and I saw these youngsters walking and they were just at the edge of town, sort of you know. After that its veld and then obviously they'd be home. The police van came because they were still you know not out of town so to speak. They picked them up, threw them in and as a young man, I stand and thinking what the parents of these children must be thinking. Where are our children where are our kids? And some how something disturbing you know that memory has never left me. There after over the years I've always you know sort of kept an eye on what was happening politically. My uncle Ameen, I don't know if you are aware of him, he was an activist, he used to be with Mandela. Then I had Kathy Khatarada, comes from Schweizer-reneke, that's where I come from. And as a young boy I used to go fishing with the late doctor Dadoo.I don't know if you guys heard of Doctor Dadoo. I was a young boy obviously and they used to sit and talk. I used to hang around there and listen to what they have to say and all of these things you know sort of interested me because there was this whole issue of justice you always felt that and to this day I always say in fact one of the sayings that I always you know quote whenever I speak to anybody I say "In absence of justice there is no Islam and I maintain that and I maintain that till the day I die and you know people remember that if there is no justice because in all the works that I have read, I have yet to come across something so powerful. You can read the aayat on Justice. Allah says and I quote "do justice even if it is against your own self. Do justice even if it is against your own next of kin. In other words, your mother, father, sister, brother. Do justice not for the sake of experiencing but for the love of Allah. There has been thousands of memories thereafter obviously you know because then something steed inside you and you are never the same. I'm talking about, I was a really young fellow, I wasn't a big guy then. I still had to go to high school. I'm talking of I was probably in standard 4 or 5 whatever. I hope that answers your question.
Interviewer: Did you in anyway have a run in with the law at that time?
Kajee: Oh yes!
Interviewer: Yeah that's interesting infect.
Kajee: Okay I'll give you, you see all the books. Ok not all the books. A lot of the books were band in those days. So you couldn't obviously, at that time we had the likes of Steven Biko. You must have heard of him. Oh well you have Alan Paton he was busy with that book called "Cry the Beloved Country." But there was another book that I really loved about hi. But now that we speaking about the run in with the law. What had actually happened was just around 76's we use to go into the township now, I don’t know if you guys had met uncle Stanley, Baboo Kajeee, Yusuf Jackison, we were the guys who use to go out there in the township. I was just speaking, I attended a wedding last weekend, I met up with shorty Baboo Kajee. He belonged to what was then called the M.Y.M- the Muslim Youth Movement. At one stage we took about 40 young girls, just like you, to Durban. A dilapidated combie that we bought just for R250.00. You can imagine that thing we had to go on. But what had happened is I went into the township and we would speak to the black youngsters. We were speaking about this whole issue on the Afrikaans language now the most hated thing. I respect, the most hated thing on God's planet as far as I'm concern, is a pimp. One who will sell his own people for a price. Somebody sold me, they picked me up. I don’t know if you guys had the opportunity to meet Baboo Kajee, well you can ask him about this and he will add the last part to it. In any event in the days of apartheid we as blacks could not own a shop. So we had to have what they called a "White Norman." In other words white were the boss of the shop. Every morning we knew that wasn’t true but you know that was the law. We had a Mrs Foss that worked for us. On a morning, we had a little shop called "Car Watch." So the law came and picked me up. So at the time they picked me up they wouldn't tell me what it was all about. So I told Mrs Foss I'll be there just now. You know you stand in the shop. So as we left the shop, there were 3 of them or whatever the number is. In any event the guy spoke to me, this policeman spoke to me in English and I obviously replied in English and he continued speaking to me in English around the block. Now we going towards the police station. Three quarter way through he asked me something in Afrikaans - just one sentence. Now I grew up in a little town called Schweizer- Reneke. Now in that town even amongst ourselves we spoke Afrikaans. I'm what you would say an "Afrikaans twee tale." I speak Afrikaans language quite fluently, so when he spoke to me in Afrikaans, before I could reply, he asked me something again in English and I replied in English, not aware that he was playing a game with me. In any event we got to the police station. He seated me, the guy in front, the guy looks at me he says why don’t you want to speak Afrikaans? So I'm thinking… I said but you have been speaking English to me. So he tells me so are you calling me a liar? So I'm thinking now when this guy did this and I couldn't remember that was one particular sentence. So he asked the guy behind didn't I ask him so I turned around. When I turned around, this guy pulled me a shot, he smacked me "paah". Don't turn around he said. So he said , yes he spoke to you in Afrikaans but you didn't reply, you spoke in English. Well this thing carried on for a little while you know smacking and questioning. In any event they accused me and as usual you know these days it is a common thing wherever, no matter what. You know I was looking at a movie. My son gave it to me. It's about these youngsters from Pakistan, actually from London who were kept at Guantanamo Bay. I was looking at the whole way in which they interrogate them. I thought to myself that it is unreal that if I look back, that is exactly how they did it. So basically they want to know who's you leader. I mean who's your leader. We've got no leader. In other words what they are really saying to me that you are incapable of formulating your own principles, of thinking for yourself. There must be a leader who's instigating you to do whatever you are doing. I said I got no leader. What leader are you talking about? In any event they turned around and said there is a guy that is standing behind this door who is a witness to the fact that you were there and you did this. I said to him it's your word against mine and I got a couple more smacks because I was not supposed to question him. In any event it was the month of Ramadaan and no word of lie, I'm not a brave person. I'm like everybody else, I'm an ordinary, normal character. I was fasting that day, it was Ramadaan. Somehow there was a quietness. Honestly everything happened to be happening in slow motion. Nothing seemed to bother me, nothing seemed to trouble me. I was not scared of them at all. I was speaking to may Creator in my mind. I read a lot of poetry and these were the things that you know kept me going. In any event eventually they decided that you know, lock him up. They took me and they took my finger prints.
Then there was this policeman who used to come to the shop and he use to buy little things and he walked pass. "Hi. Hello, what are you doing here? , he asked. I said I had a problem. He said that he would sort it out. He goes there, comes back and says that I should tell them the truth and it's all over. I asked what truth is there to tell. I said whatever I had to say. He told me not to mess with his system. I told him that I never asked for his help and that you guys were going to do what you have to because you are the law. He used that "f" word and said that he was going to "f" me up. I said to him that I was in his territory and he could do with me whatever he pleased. At that point, Baboo Kajee, who I was speaking of and late Mohammed Tayob walked in. Mohammed Tayob was very good with the law and he walked in and had a couple of words and eventually called me and asked if I was fasting. I said yes, He said OK. Mr Tayob promised that at the end of Ramadaan I will come back and report this…
Interviewer: Firstly, I want to than you for giving us your time. Jazakallah. This is our token of appreciation. Thank you for giving us your time.
Interviewer: Alright now on apartheid, your role in general apartheid era. Firstly we would like to hear from you, what was the most significant event that you recall when the word apartheid comes to mind. That era when you hear that, what's the first event that comes to mind?
Kajee: You see the first thing that comes to mind is when I was very young and we were deprived – to say that you know there were place where we could not go to. To give a simple example: like Vereeniging town. People must have seen a lot of parks there. You know we couldn't go to any of those parks because the parks were for Whites only. This thing went to such an extent that you found in the Vaal Triangle, for example, there were a lot of schools, plenty of high schools, a lot of primary schools and so on. Yet, we only had one school and that school was only a primary school. It was only up to standard 5 or 6 and when we finished primary school and we had to go to high school then we had to go to Johannesburg. It was a very tiring thing because we use to leave in the dark and we use to come back in the dark because we had to travel by train at that time. This train stopped at every little station that was between Vereeniging and Johannesburg. We used to leave very early in the morning to make it by 8 o' clock at school. Coming back, again we could only board the train lets say it was always normally by 4 o'clock half 4 in the afternoon. So by the time we got home it was dard again you know, and you were tired. There wasn't much you could do.
Interviewer: As an activist did you ever have a run in with the law at any time? Any bad experiences, feelings towards the law?
Kajee: Ya, well let me put it this way that you see at that time assuming if you spoke out against apartheid or if you spoke out against any of the authorities that was committed either than government, you had to be very careful in front of whom you were speaking. What would happen is sometimes you are not aware and whatever you have spoken, this entire conversation goes to the special branch police. Now we use to have that time what you call "The Special Branch Police" and when this information gets to them and you could be rest assured that within a day they'll be right at your doorstep and pick you up. They'll pick you up and they take you away and they'll interrogate you, and then they'll quote exactly word-for-word whatever you said. This was one of the things.
Interviewer: So it was like spies sitting in your company that would then go wand …
kajee: Yes, yes. That was one of the things, yes. The other thing that I could not forget and will always remain in my mind is in 1976. We were playing cricket and we belonged to an association that was opposing the government. We were having an inter-provincial game between Transvaal and Natal. We hosted the game in Johannesburg. I was then the vice president of the Transvaal cricket team association. That particular evening we were feeding our guests from Natal with supper. We were picked up by the police and taken to John Vorster Square at that time. When we got to John Vorster Square, they put us in a lift. This lift didn't go up, it went down about three or four floors. When we were there they put us in a room and they just left us there, but what happened was that there was another room next to the room in which we were. There was a wall separating the two rooms. In this other room they brought in black children. I'm not exaggerating, but you knew they were children. I would say ages maybe between 9 – 14, little children. We could hear screams. They were taking these children and they were bashing them against the wall. They were saying that these are children that are activists because at that time in 1976 there was the Soweto riots. These riots were caused by the school children. The riots were of course a story. The government was forcing that education must be done through Afrikaans and the children opposed this and this was the Soweto uprising.
In 1976 and we were at the wrong place at the right time or whatever, but we actually witnessed this interrogation and this torture that was taking place. How they were treating little children that were innocent.
Now there were many incidents that took place, like for example, they use to have what they call the pass laws. Now a pass is like what you and I would call today identity book. But this particular pass book was a very very big and bulky thing and it was only meant that the blacks must carry this and like we use to employ domestic servants like we still do. But you could not keep a domestic servant in your premises. Like he or she could not sleep at your place. When it gets dark they have to go home and that they have to be registered. If they are not registered, that means that you have employed them and you haven't registered them that means that they are I mean er you are employing them illegally so to say. And if and we use to get this type of raids. The police used to raid our homes. They would come right into your house and the whole excuse was that they looking for domestics. I'm not exaggerating but at once they came right into my father's bedroom at night and they went under the bed to see if we were not hiding the domestics. Now these are all types of things that took place and Like I mentioned to you earlier that whenever we opposed it or we said anything against then you would also become the victim.
Interviewer: Em, did you personally ever sort of feel the abuse?
Kajee: Yes,yes,yes. This happened once, you see I was belonging; this was actually quite a later stage in my life that I joined a movement called the Muslim Youth Movement, the MYM. What happened was that I was once picked up. They picked me up and they took me into the interrogation room and this fellow was passing questions such that the MYM is completely opposed to the government and that the MYM is an organisation that wants to see to the overthrow of the government and so on and so forth. As much as I tried to convince him that this was not the line of the MYM. Then he had the Holy Quraan in his office and he took his filthy hand and he started bashing the Quraan on top. He said in Afrikaans; I wouldn't really like to quote what he said because they were very very derogatory. But it was something to the effect that you know you Muslims believe in this nonsense or shit whatever you call it and he was banging the Quraan and when he was banging the Quraan and I lost my cool and I retaliated. When I retaliated to him I didn't notice another one walking and he had a bay ton in his hand and he clapped me with his bay ton. Still do you know I didn't jut give in to it because deep in my heart I felt that nobody insults my Quran and you know to get away with it. This is one of those interrogations that I went through. The other one was like I mentioned to you earlier that when we were arrested for that cricket thing in John Vorster Square. What they did was they would take a chalk you know and they make a square on the floor, a small little square and they tell you to stand on that. You know you must just stand in that square you not allowed to move. You must stand on that spot one way and they leave you to stand there and what happened was I was standing all the time and you feel very lame afterwards. I wanted to I mean I wanted to urinate. I wanted to go to the toilet and I couldn't because he wouldn't allow me and I just stood on that spot eventually, to what an extend, that I wet myself completely. This was a very you know I would say a very nasty incident you know that happened then. What they did was they just you know they would just keep you there and all the time they kept questioning you. You give them an answer, no your answer is not good enough. Then on your answer they ask you another question and they kept carrying on like that. This thing must have carried on for I think like 36-48 hours. Eventually when they didn't find anything you know. I don't know, maybe the help of Allah you know they released us.
Interviewer: So in this MYM more-or-less how many members did it include?
Kajee: you mean when we were there in the cricket thing?
Interviewer: yeah, no the Muslim Youth Women. The MYM, how many members did it consist of?
Kajee: the MYM consist of quite a big organization. It was MYM of South Africa. I was actually the chairman of the Vereeniging branch. We had branches all over South Africa, the MYM.
Interviewer: What was your attitude towards politics after these bad experiences? Did you become despondent? Did you not want to become involve anymore? What was your attitude like?
Kajee: You mean whether I'll still take part in politics?
Interviewer: ya, ya, ya
Kajee: Well look lemme put it to you this way. You see the politics that I advocate today is I advocate the politics of Islam. I don’t look at Islam purely just as a religion but I look at Islam as a way of life. That Islam constitutes everything it constitutes a family life. Islam is in your work place. Its in your how would I say, you know it's in your work place, it's outside, it's all over because Allah is all knowing and all seeing. The most important thing that what I aspire for, I mean you know I mean this is my inspiration in life is to establish Allah's deen on earth. This is the ultimate desire that I have and of course over and above that I would still feel that you know is to unite the entire Muslim Ummah under one banner that is the banner of Lailahah Ililah.
Interviewer: Uncle… if I can ask you a question. I remember sitting here when I was still at school in the 80's, and you were very involved with the political movements even then. Describe to us your your your involvement you know the fact that you were part of the MYM yet at the same time you were part of other structures as well as that were affiliated to the ANC perhaps the MDM, the mass democratic movement or you know because the boycotts that were involved and again you witnessed many people chasing you, many police hitting people because many children besides these here, they think that apartheid is a myth you know. It's a legend it never sort of… Can you point that picture for us of how you actually were involved beyond the MYM?
Kajee: See like I mentioned when I was young you know look there was always seniors and to answer your question you see at that time the seniors were mostly affiliated to the ANC, the African National Congress. The ANC I'm sure many of you know was a Banned body, a banned organization. But what use to happen was people use to work very very secretly. Now we were one of the you know the the er letter carriers or the pamphlet carriers let us put it that way. You see you that I mean that would come in from outside. There was one of my colleagues I don't know how many of you may have heard of him or may have not heard of him. For the person by the name of Ahmed Timol. Now Ahmed Timol and myself we studied together. We were in high school together in Johannesburg. Ahmed became a teacher you see and what happened at that time they could Ahmed you see and they caught him with a lot of literature and when they caught him with this literature you see they took him away and in the evaluation they were trying to feed you know, dish out things from him which they could not and eventually look I,m er still convinced up till today that Ahmed Timol was killed by them. That they threw him down when they could not get the information that maybe they wanted. Like if you take, oh yes, one of the other things I forgot to mention to you was that I even went on a post there education. Because then I went to a school that was a private school. The school that was run by the Congress. But it was then called the Transvaal Indian Congress, TIC. The TIC was a body that was affiliated to the ANC. This school was in Johannesburg. It was like a private school. We had multi-racial teachers. We had all types of teachers teaching us. I can even quote to you that if you look at the two brothers that sit in parliament. One is named Mr Essop Pahad who is in the president's office and his brother, Aziz Pahad, who is a deputy foreign minister. Both of them were with me at the same school. They both graduated from there. They finished there matric there.
There was an incident which also I must mention to you, that when it came about, I think it was in1958 when the call came that we must boycott potatoes. Now what happened at that time, you see every child that was going to school, everyone, be it in the primary school or high school. You know when you had a school break then the children couldn't do without chips. All use to go to the fish and chips shop you know and buy chips. The call came that you must boycott potatoes and we all wandered why you must boycott potatoes. But then the truth came to us that the reason is that potatoes were grown mostly in Bethal. You call it today the Mpumalanga province. Potatoes came from there and most of the labour that was used on the potato farms were convict labour. They use to take the convicts and make the convicts work. They use to beat the convicts up and there were many convicts that were killed and they were buried on those farms and on top of their dead bodies they were growing potatoes. So this is when the call came that we had to boycott potatoes. We were very heavily involved at that time together of course with Essop Pahad and Aziz Pahad when we were going to the government schools and we were telling the pupils not to eat potatoes and then the matter went to the police. The police came and we had to run. Fortunately you know we did not get arrested you know we escaped arrest and so on.
Interviewer: Do you still have any contacts with Aziz Pahad and his brother?
Kajee: Yes, yes.
Interviewer: What about other fellow activists? Do you still keep in contact with them and how?
Kajee: Ya, we whenever we meet you know we still speak, discuss there's a lot of things you know that we discuss and so on.
Interviewer: Then what was your career like after the unbanning of the ANC?
Kajee: Look my career is been the same, I've been in business you know and that's it. But like I say look of course you know you do a lot of part in community here. In Roshnee you know so you know with sports and education and all those things you and er very er I would say very very recently because it was just before apartheid went did the Roshnee High School here had a principal by the name of Mr Percy Peters. I don't know if any of you heard of him. But there was a principal here by the name of Mr Percy Peters and I was on the education committee at that time. That was about the only school we had in Roshnee. It was a primary and high school all in one. All the time what we were trying you we were trying to sort of get the best for our children you know. On many things we were opposed and opposed by none other than the principal… that was the first thing. The second thing was that he was very very anti-Muslim or anti-Islam. I mean, I mean this is a fact. What happened that time there was a little boy you know that come from a farm and they came to reside here in Roshnee. Now according to the Standerton norms that time this little boy, his granny was an Indian, Muslim Indian and his grandfather I think was a black person. So obviously his mother was you know a mixture. Now that wanted to put this little boy in school and they came to me and I said why not. I said at that time the government said that education is compulsory. I said well if eduction is compulsory then this child should be accepted in this school. I took this child to the school to enroll him. What happened was I was asked a lot of nasty questions you know like I was asked the question who is the child's father. As much as I tried to tell the principal, I said look the child don't have a father. Thinking that he would understand but no he kept insisting. Eventually there was a very nasty incident that took place between me and the school and I had a go at him and I said you know on one hand your government claims that education is compulsory on the other hand you got so many red tapes here, now what is it that you are up to? You want to educate the children or you don't want to educate the children. After I said all that again like I mentioned you know I was picked up by the security guards for having a go at the principal.
Interviewer: Do you ever feel that your efforts in fighting against apartheid may have gone unnoticed in some way or another?
Kajee: Look the most important thing that I look at it this way that I'm not here to look for credit or for anything like that. I personally feel that you know if the efforts that we put in and if that efforts brought any fruits and if it brought about improvement then I would say that that is a reward, I would say that that is more reward than anything else.
Interviewer: Hmm, that's most important. Now if you look at it sort of if you look at it in a different light, at the moment, presently we don't seem to see many Indians and particularly Muslims involved in politics any longer. What is your feeling about this and is there any advice that you would like to share with us in terms of getting involved in and being a part of it?
Kajee: You see what I personally think that er this is how I'm viewing situation right now. There is a very big conspiracy that's taking place in the world. Now, this conspiracy is to such an extent that I'm sure you know that many of you young people must be noticing this to that every second Muslim for a Muslim you know is regarded as a terrorist or as an insurgent. More than anything else you see what I see through this is this is nothing but to bring about a new world order. This is definitely taking place. Now in order to get about this new world order the biggest stumbling block is Islam. Islam is the biggest stumbling block and moreover the Muslims. If you take our learned scholars today irrespective of which country they are, irrespective of which school of thought they belong, the mere fact that whoever got the Quraan and have got the Hadith and so are people that can enlighten you, are people that can take you to the truth and they can warn you against a lot of atrocities and so on that's taking place. Now how to get rid of this, you see its simple what do they do is that because they are in charge of the media so the media is controlled by them whether it's in South Africa. I can tell you safely that in the whole of Africa as well as in the whole of the Middle East as well as the whole of Europe, the whole of America and so on the media is controlled by them. Be it the newspapers be it the radios be it the television and so on…
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