Zafar Nathie Interview with Apartheid Activist

Date: 7 July 2007
Audio Appliance:

Interview:

Zafar:
Assalamualaikum, I am Zafar Nathie and I’m interviewing Uncle Inaayat Ismail.

Zafar:
Uncle Inaayat tell us something about yourself, your childhood and how you got involved in politics or political resistance?

Inaayat:
Well at a very young age, at the time of my youth there were many political struggles that were taking place globally and locally, but my first seeds that were sown was a result of what I had seen on television and via media that related to the massacres that took place in Palestine in the Sabrah Shatilla camps. I think that had left an indelevel mark in my memory, I think that had started to despond some sort of resistance inside myself, coupled to that during those years in 79 even there was the Islamic revolution that was taking place in Iran. I think that had also started sowing seeds of motivation and then coming back home there were struggles that were starting to emerge, you know of the 76 riots that had taken place, but during my time it was it was more the 80’s where the level of resistance internally had grown to such an extent that it necessitated people even like myself who had some level of understanding of issues of struggle to start to really get involve in issues to fight injustice. So I think the issues that had taken place globally, the issues that were taking place locally and my own understanding of my faith, my Islamic faith that says that if you see injustice taking place and where if you are keeping quiet about it then you are as much part of that injustice and that I was invoked to in terms of my faith even to stand up and to say what is it that I need to do to be part of this struggle of liberation.

Zafar:
What is the most significant event which you can recall during your time spent as an apartheid activist?

Inaayat:
Look, when I was involved in the Vaal, when I was involved in the Vaal Youth Congress which had later become SACO, the South African Unit Congress. Much work was done in the townships and I particularly recall going to Sebokeng and Sharpeville at the time there was a meeting that was taking place there and police had come in and attacked and defences people were killed. When you see that type of death that takes place in front of your eyes, I think when you look at it on television it really doesn’t ride on but when you standing in front and somebody’s mown down in front of you. I think then it really stands up that type of aggression inside you.


Zafar:
Did you have a run in with the law at that time?

Inaayat:
Yes, I had a few run-in’s with the law. Been an activist and you know in our communities even there lots of people that had spied for the apartheid police and the bureau’s of the state security. So obviously if you are profiled in your communities to have been taken part in resistance struggles the word would have gone up to the police. I know when I was in Laudium and been part of the struggle that was taking place there as an extension of the struggle that was taking place there even while I was a student there was a delegation from the tricameral parliament, that was coming to the teachers training collage to officiate a dysfunction and we needed to show our resistance and our disdain to the tricameral parliament so we decided to show acts of defence and one of them we had petrol bombed a rectice office of which I was later arrested and detained for that.

Zafar:
You say you have been arrested and detained, how is that experience?

Inaayat:
Well detention is not an easy experience. You go through vicious levels of torture, there’s psychological torture, there’s emotional torture, there’s mental torture, there’s physical torture but I think if you are well rooted in struggle and if you have beliefs that can carry you along and if you look at the history of Islamic struggles that have taken place, you could only succeed with strong belief and strong conviction and I think that had taken me through.

Zafar:
Do you still have contact with any of your fellow activists and can you tell me which one of them spent time in detention with you?

Inaayat:
Yes, activism is something that is not a seasonal, it is something that is embedded in your life and that once the seed in sown in you, you sort of carry it along your life. I’m still deeply involved, although not actively involved because my current job would not allow me that amount of freedom to get totally involved, but yes I do meet with struggle activists regularly. I still catch up on issues, we exchange ideas just last night I had a discussion with one of my MP’s, Ismail Wadee who’s in parliament and we spoke about some political issues that one current and yes of course I do meet with them from time to time.

Zafar:
What is your current job today?

Inaayat:
Well I’m currently working in government, in state security it’s something that I don’t really much talk about in view of its sensitivities, but it is a natural extension of what I have done in the past.


Zafar:
So what you have done has helped you to get this job?

Inaayat:
Well I don’t say it has helped me to get this job, I think what it has done it has prepared me for the job that I’m currently in. I trained overseas and one of the countries I have trained in was in Egypt for a while and the training that I had gotten in Egypt had I think prepared me adequately for the type of job I’m doing currently.

Zafar:
What was your attitude like towards these policies after those run-in’s or bad experiences?

Inaayat:
Well I think you become a little more defiant, you get a little more aggressive, your resolve becomes a little more stronger and you feel that what you are doing is just the right thing to do.

Zafar:
Were you a MK, a member of the military wing of the ANC at a time and can you describe your experiences?

Inaayat:
Yes I was part of the military wing, although I served more the intelligence role inside the military wing, you know when you do military operations, every operation is premise of intelligence on enemy movements, analysis of targets and that. So that was the area that I had worked in. Well experiences are experiences that have been documented when you had seen explosions and that, that had taken place. Obviously some of these things, is things one just generally don’t sit and talk about those type of experiences, but sad to say that it was a difficult period, it was a difficult time, you living on the edge and there was always on ’X’ factor because you actually couldn’t come back and say that tonight there will be a nightfall because you wouldn’t know how exactly the nightfall would turn out to be.

Zafar:
Do you feel that your efforts of struggle were in vain?

Inaayat:
No I don’t think so, I think I’ve just played but a small part of struggle, I think there have been many more people that have played an important role, that have really not been recognized and I think that that’s quite sad, I’m just comfortable that I can sit here and say to you that yes I have made sure that I have planted the seed inside this country that allowed for this type of liberation, but economically and socially I think there is still much of struggle that has to take place and I think we still need to redouble our efforts to make sure that this national democratic revolution is really taken its fold.

Zafar:
How do you feel about those powers at that time, that is what did you think about the white supremacy at that time?
Inaayat:
Well I think white supremacy is inherently evil it makes you and I feel inferior. If you had to look and understand the faith that which we belong to and I think that’s where most of our convictions come from, it actually forms the basis of any of our convictions, you would realize that everyone is created equal. So I really had no time and no real regard or respect for white supremacy, although I must admit that the system of apartheid has had its influence on us. If we currently look, we might find everything that is white to be good and beautiful and everything that is black to be evil. If you talk about white its associated with clean colour, if you thought of black its associated with darkness even if you had to read the plays of Shakespeare, ‘Its that type of silent propagation, negative propagation that is taking place, that tends to loan this idea that everything that is white is clear and bright and good and inherently good and everything that is non-white is inherently bad’ and I think that’s actually sad because we’ve grown up like that and I think lots of us still carry some of those shreds within us.

Zafar:
How did you react to the many different laws? E.g. the past laws, the group areas act, etc:

Inaayat:
Well we were actually victims of the group areas act, we lived in Roshnee, it was a predominantly Indian area, we had a coloured township that was across the road from us, we had a black township that was not even a few hundred or not even a few kilometres away from us, that had really… The group areas act had just basically divided people and right now, the struggle that we have now is to make sure that cocoons in which we live, we brake down these walls and that we integrate the society, because if we keep those barriers still then all we are doing, we are just keeping the ideas of apartheid still in place.

Zafar:
Did you ever hear or see a neck lacing?

Inaayat:
I was in the area where there was a neck lacing that was taking place, on the east rand. I wasn’t there when the actual neck lacing was taking place, but I came after the fact and I had seen the remains. I think it’s a gruesome sight, but look in struggle there were many things that were been done that might have not been good, but it just shows the level of frustration people go through and what they would want to get to drive a point through. This by no means justifies the gratis of those actions that might have taken place, but you know accesses that were taken place on the apartheid side and from our side but ours was based on pure frustration and its like an ant fighting an elephant at that time, because you had security forces and all the force, all the power behind them and you were just fighting with the sticks and stones and in the midst if you get somebody that’s your traitor, that is been part of you or belongs to the same demographic group, but yet goes and spies against you. The punishment was something which people felt was very severe about that and said lets necklace these people.


Zafar:
What message would you like to share with the people of South Africa today?

Inaayat:
Well I would like to say that I think we far from the end, we’ve just started this revolution, we need to take it forward, we need to make sure that our youth understand exactly the struggle that had taken place in the past, what we try to do in a little way is set a foundation. All the youth need to do now is to make sure it develops into a strong foundation where all life is respected, where we don’t look at each other and judge each other based on the colour of our skin, but we judge each other in terms of who we are as individuals. So I think we have a long way to go, there is still a lot of social emancipation that needs to take place, there’s a lot of economic emancipation that needs to take place and I think we still need to do our bit to make sure we reach that.

Zafar:
We don’t see any people in our community or the Indians and Muslims in particular involved in politics and the civil service as there should be. Therefore what do you feel about this and is there any advice that you would like to share regarding this?

Inaayat:
I think it’s actually sad, during the apartheid years you had seen more of our communities that were involved in struggle, but I think there is some amount of complacency that has come in, people have started to feel more relaxed and I suppose it’s a result of the way things have started to pan out. We not seen that type of injustice around us so we not really spurred to do more and that’s actually quite sad. I would that if our communities get more involved, right now what is happening is that we actually marginalizing ourselves and we are becoming an Indian community rather then regarding ourselves as a South African community and that is actually going to be very bad for our own existence as an ethnic minority group. I think what we need to do is that we need to make sure that people in our communities start resuscitating themselves and getting involved in struggle, because like I said to you, the struggle is really not over, there is still much that still needs to be done and if you see around, the levels of poverty, you still cant sit back and say everything is well and all well, there is still a lot of work to be done.

Zafar:
So what do you have to tell the youth of today who are not aware of the apartheid period?

Inaayat:
Well firstly I think the youth, the most important thing they need to do is first educate themselves. You can only empower yourself through good education, but then once you are educated you need to make sure that you add value to your community. Not only to your community but your society at large and to your country as a whole. It’s of no value reaping the benefits of a democracy but not been able to put anything else. So my fervid desire would be for youth to organize themselves into groups and to take on projects, small projects for that matter that will be able to show that communities are really taking care of some of the issues. I mean youth can take many form, youth fomentations can take place in many forms. You can develop literacy groups and you can go out and educate those less disadvantage or you can look at winter projects do something during winter for communities, but so that the effluent and the less effluent or the effluent and those that are in poverty can meet and share each others experiences and when you share that experience you understand each other and I think that’s where the seeds of understanding starts to grow in you and that will start to lead automatically to come sort of activism inside you, but if you going to have to cocoon yourself and get comfortable in your good houses, in your smart car and your fancy dress. I would think you are living in a false society.

Zafar:
At what age did you start becoming aware of this and at what age did you join the ANC?

Inaayat:
Look is started reading from about standard eight, I was the first born generation in South Africa; my parents had come from India. So if you understand the dynamic in a home. Your parents were very rudimentary, more worried about your own issues in a house, not wanting to get involved in outside issues be of their own conservativeness. So you had to coach yourself and get into that. Although at no point would I have found any resistance from my parents to get involved in any of these activities. All I think they had worried about was the safety and security of their own children, but from about standard eight I thought I was starting to get more and more understanding and when I had reached matric. I think that’s where the level of activism was then the greatest because from standard eight to matric, at that time was really years when I can say that the seeds were have been set for me to start to get involved totally in resistance work.

Zafar:
Apartheid must have put a bad impression on you, what type of feeling did it put on you?

Inaayat:
Well at that time you would have realized that even you had to go to University, you had to apply at University and then there was a quota system and they would have only taken that amount of people in. If you had looked in our own communities or in our own town, we couldn’t, if we had to go into Vereeniging there were certain areas where we were really not allowed to get into. If you look economically we were even set out into certain areas. If you look in our own localities, you could see what apartheid had done. I mean if you had to go to a bus stop and see a sign board that says; ‘white only sits here’ and that you had to sit on another chair somewhere else far away. You actually start to question yourself, am I a human being and that’s the feeling which is really not nice to start to ask yourself and when you have that level of understanding and resistance in you, you actually feel galled by these type of things and it naturally spurs you to open up and to want to free yourself from this.

Zafar:
Finally are you hopeful for the South Africa we have today?



Inaayat:
Look I’m hopeful but there are many challenges. I think what is happening currently with cause I’m concerned for is if you look at internal debates and battles that are starting to take place, but I’m hopeful that we got leadership in this country that will be able to see us through, but I’m more concerned at the fact that at our community level there is not that amount of activism because you would like to see that from a local level grow up, right up to a national level. So yes I’m hopeful in one sense for the new South Africa, but I’m even premising that hope on some amount of work that needs to be done to ensure that that hope becomes a reality.

Zafar:
Last but not least what challenges do you think that we still need to overcome, after we have overcome the apartheid?

Inaayat:
Look the challenge is for us to free ourselves. If the shackle is on your brain you can be free with your hands but as long as the shackle is on your brain you are really not free. So you need to liberate your mind first and once you have liberated your mind, you will find liberation. We might be sitting in a new South Africa, but we still think in terms ok black and white. We in our everyday existence and our everyday life we still talk black and white. Look you would understand this, coming from a conservative community like ours, its something that is not far fetched. We see it in everyday talk, we see it in our weddings, we see it in our mosques, we see it in our small gatherings where people talk and the talk is basically still black and white and we look at this constitution. The constitution really doesn’t base its self on colour, it bases its self on dignity and freedom and human quality and I think that’s the challenge and the vision that we need to get to.

Zafar:
Jazakallah, that is Uncle Inaayat Ismail and I am Zafar Nathie from Roshnee Islamic School. Assalamualaikum