INTERVIEW WITH MR 'STANLEY SALEY & MR kAJEE

Technology: DVD & Audio
Interviewer: Hm okay but now if you look at it from a South African point of view, what are your feelings about the future of our youth of today in terms of not really being apart of politics or the government and not willing to be involved in it, what do you feel about this just South Africa per say?

STANLEY SALEY
You see, I personally feel that every youth especially, more then anything else is the Muslim youth. The Muslim youth can bring about a very big change in this country. You can bring about the change because you've got to do the work of da'wa- is to propagate Islam because this is the ideology that I personally feel that the world needs, that Africa needs that South Africa needs. You will be surprised that how many people throughout today are reverting to Islam because people are seeking these things, they are looking for it. So as Muslims, I mean me as a Muslim, I'll be very honest with you, I am very optimistic as far as the future of this country is concerned. Because I personally feel that the youth of today and the youth that will still come are going to bring about the change, undoubtedly, of course with the help of Allah. So not necessarily in politics but yaw in everything be it political, be it you know social, be it everything.

Interviewer: How do you feel this way though, keeping in mind that we really not getting involved in these types of things we seem to like in previous interviews we come the conclusion that our parents or we have been placed in such comfort zones that we not going out there, we not grabbing the opportunities available to us. You know we not taking them so how to do you sort of see this change happening in the country or for us as Muslims in the future.

STANLEY SALEY
Ya, you see, look; the thing is I mean I would say that you are answering your won question because in this way that look you got to put the effort because you know we can't sit back and say that things will not happen, you've got to make it happen. You see every individual has got to play a role, you see, if you study, look I mean m I'm sure many of you know your Islamic History better than me. But if you into there right, you will find that you know like the Prophet of Islam(May pace be upon him) look at the amount of effort he put in. If you look that you know what he went through in order to bring about you know in order to bring about that social record. It didn't just happen over night, he worked for it. Then eventually he brought fruits to it so in a like fashion I say that one cannot sit back and look things will happen. It won't happen. You've got to make it happen. You see that is the whole idea. Like I said that look I got personally I am you know one of those people who are very optimistic. Like when I look at the youth of today with the modern day technology and with everything that is taking place I find that why not because we are slowly producing that type of thing we are coming about.

Interviewer: It's good to hear that since like everyone else had a very opposite like approach/view about the whole thing. Many other older people felt that us as youth are not taking our stand in society to bring about the change. Its good to hear that there is some hope for us.

STANLEY SALEY
Ya, no, of course, there is a lot of hope for us. Why not? You know, you know, I know, I mean, I see, look, I mean I will be very honest with you. You know I see lot of encouraging signs. Like once there was a lady. I thing she was a lecturer at one of the universities here in South Africa. It’s a Muslim woman and she was on TV you know she was on television and look she was very well/glad. Look she had a headscarf and so on and they kept on having a go at her that why are you wearing this. Look she was a professor right and you know she gave a very beautiful answer. You know what she said? She said look I'm in a classroom and I've got to give a lesson. Since my students, there right she says if I must you know if I must be naked in front of them will they be interested in what I've got to say. They'll only be interested in my body right, so you know this is how she put. She says that you see when I 'm clad this way, she says my students respect me. They listen to what I've got to say. So she put it very well but you see what I'm saying is that that you know one can see these things but look it is happening you know when I take you know I'll be honest with you I take a lot of encouragement from these things.

Interviewer: Understanding what for you, personal question, which policeman in your mind you still remembered that tortured one particular guy that you know is still in your mind that tortured people and did his thing you know.

STANLEY SALEY
Ya, let me think. I'm just thinking about the name right. There was one policeman. Look I,m quoting now. These were guys that were in the Special Branch right. For the head of the Special Branch at that one time with the fellow by the name of Mr Wessels. I think his name was spelt with a "W", W- e- s- s- e- l- s, Wessels. There was Wessels and there was one fellow by the name of Mr Lotters. Then a fellow by the name of Mr Pretorius. There was a fourth man. In any case, I can't remember the fourth one. Now Mr Wessels was the one that used to be very diplomatic. In other words, he would you know like interrogate you in a very diplomatic way. You see Lotter was the one that was you know how would I say? He was very punch hungry you know. Like you know he would just you know any minute you know you could just feel a smack coming to you or a shot coming to you. You know that was Lotter and the third fellow, this Mr Pretorius guy, oh he was very violent. Violent? Ya, very very violent. He would you know he was a fellow you know just want to grab you and bash you up against the wall and everything you know. He was that type of a person and then after them you know when we came to live here in Roshnee, there was a fellow by the name of Mr Baartman. Mr Baartman, yes. This fellow Baartman, I will be very honest with you, he was the one that clapped me you know with the you know he clapped me with the baton. He was a very violent person and then there was one, I don't know what was his surname, but he use to be here at the De Deur Police Station. I can only remember his first name, Mitgerrie. He was also a very very nasty person, not a good person.

Interviewer: So uncle Stanley, do you know any one now in the police force still that played a part in apartheid, that’s still maybe alive that maybe we will be able to contact?

STANLEY SALEY
Here in Roshnee? In anywhere, just in the Vaal?. I mean Muslims that took part here or Muslims and non-Muslims or you mean those that took part in the struggle for apartheid?.

Interviewer: Gee, gee

STANLEY SALEY
Look we had stalwarts like I can look but I think most of them are late and most of them can from Evaton undoubtedly. You know there was a late uncle Bob Asmal. You know this Bob Asmal that sells sheep and cattle and all that. I'm talking about his late father. He was a very great man and there was late Mr Solly Nathie and Oh yes, Dr Patel.


Interviewer: Perhaps you can just do a little spin to the interview. This is Suhail right and his daughter Rehana and I met with him last year Ramadaan for the first time at my aunty's place and we were speaking about this. This when the idea of the "Vaal Hearings" came about and you don't mind if we can put you on foot there. We doing this basically for ourselves.

Interviewer: Suhail, what's your impressions of the whole apartheid issue that hearing of now and the last time as well. Everything for you, you were very quiet, you were close to tears and now that we are here in your father-in-laws house, listening to it. How does it affect you although you were not part of the system in implementing apartheid but you were a beneficiary in a sense. But how do you feel now that you know it really was an eye opening experience to be in our company and listen to us and now that you are part of the Ummah and all of that how do you take response to that?

Suhail: Its very sad of what I have heard happened and things like that. Obviously I was brought up in that as you said on the right side of things. We weren't aware of what was going on you know, we weren't exposed to those things and when we sat and I heard what was going on, experiences people have had it was really, really, it was saddening. I wish I had known more and I wish I could've done more at the time to sort these things out. At the time you know.

Interviewer: Did you ever witness any of these things, crude happenings?

Suhail Nothing, nothing at all. Like I said we were like in the Whites only areas. We would go to school, we would come back and we would like be in a like safe haven that we were in. Like you know we were never exposed to these things.

Interviewer: So that you just sort of heard about it?

Suhail : We didn't even hear about it. The first time I heard about it was when we went for a braai in Ramadaan and I heard all these stories. It was like it was shocking to hear what was happening. You know, and I didn't know what to say and respond because it was just overwhelming at that time.

Interviewer: So what exactly were you told as a young boy about what was happening in your country that you didn't know about what you were told?

Suhail It was never really discussed. We always we knew that there was the Blacks only and then the Whites only. To put it plain and simple like that. But it really wasn't discussed the reason behind it. I went to the army and it wasn't even discussed there, you know there must have been underlying reasons behind what we were doing but it wasn't openly discussed as listen this is that may be I was ignorant to the whole situation. I don't know.

Interviewer: So not even amongst your friends did you say ….. either?

Suhail : I don't know, I don't think but so look we were in a little community and just Whites only. That was it has maids and that within our community and work with us and we never witnessed any violence and anything bad could happen. You know and the TV I'm sure cut it all out and we didn't see it either.

Interviewer: So what is the feeling amongst your community members when you heard apartheid is coming to an end now and Nelson Mandela is being freed. What is the feelings and the atmosphere like within your community?

Suhail : There was lots of doubts of what is going to happen and people not sure and that everything is changing and all of that but I never had a problem with colour - never seen colour – and within our family and within our community there were lots of questions but there weren't any real concerns or any real worry to what is going to happen, you know or lets wait and see to what is going to happen from there and having said that I've been traveled to about 17 countries and South Africa is the best to be in. I don't want to be anywhere else and my recent but not so recent about two years ago we reverted to Islam and the community that we are in is overwhelming. We were close community as a White community but the Indian community where I am now is really closer and that it feels right you know it's good.

Interviewer: from your side what advice you can offer to bring South Africa higher and to take it more out of its third world image that it is walking out of but what is your advice to us?

Suhail : the thing I have battled and at the moment I don't know if it is selfish but this whole B.E.E thing and I understand the concept of B.E.E and I'm fully for it but also I feel at out sometimes like short, give the people the advantage, give him the opportunity and also don’t cute out at the same time. I was involved in it and I'm sure I've benefited from the whole situation and it wasn't me who did the whole thing you know so just to find the balance. I think once we can find that and put everybody's mind at rest little and go well from there – inshallah.

Interviewer: Suhail, this exercise we trying to implement is to bring the classroom outside and take what is outside into the classroom we're teaching the novel "Cry The Beloved Country" next term and your experience and the experience that your father-in-law has –how do you find this type of activity- do you think it will enrich the pupils experience in the classrooms?

Suhail : Ya, I'm sure its good to let the people know what's happened out there obviously to learn not only from your mistakes but from other peoples mistake once you've learnt those mistakes then maybe go as a person as community as a country – I'm sure it will be good – ya.

Interviewer: Last conclusion – any last messages, feelings or memories that you may have because – in conclusion anything you liked to share with us, to end it off- any advice.

S.Saley: There is one more name you must put down there that I have great admiration – that is one person you must mention and I have great admiration for his Dr Ram Saloojee – that's his initials.

Interviewer: This is just a little token – I hope you will appreciate it – can we share it – is it all mine?
And as Mr Sujee said we connect these stories because we just find that there is so much of this history and we don't want it to be lost. Okay, just briefly another reason why we putting this book together.

Interviewer: When the word apartheid is heard, what is your most significant memory of the entire era. What comes to mind, almost immediately?

Kajee: I'll tell you a little story. I grew in a little town called Schweizer-reneke. My father's shop is the first shop when you enter town. As a young boy – I'm sitting one day in those days at nine o' clock a siren used to go and after nine no blacks were allowed in town. Now what use to happen is that parents should send their children to do a bit of shopping. I was standing outside on the stoep and I saw these youngsters walking and they were just at the edge of town, sort of you know. After that its veld and then obviously they'd be home. The police van came because they were still you know not out of town so to speak. They picked them up, threw them in and as a young man, I stand and thinking what the parents of these children must be thinking. Where are our children where are our kids? And some how something disturbing you know that memory has never left me. There after over the years I've always you know sort of kept an eye on what was happening politically. My uncle Ameen, I don't know if you are aware of him, he was an activist, he used to be with Mandela. Then I had Kathy Khatarada, comes from Schweizer-reneke, that's where I come from. And as a young boy I used to go fishing with the late doctor Dadoo.I don't know if you guys heard of Doctor Dadoo. I was a young boy obviously and they used to sit and talk. I used to hang around there and listen to what they have to say and all of these things you know sort of interested me because there was this whole issue of justice you always felt that and to this day I always say in fact one of the sayings that I always you know quote whenever I speak to anybody I say "In absence of justice there is no Islam and I maintain that and I maintain that till the day I die and you know people remember that if there is no justice because in all the works that I have read, I have yet to come across something so powerful. You can read the aayat on Justice. Allah says and I quote "do justice even if it is against your own self. Do justice even if it is against your own next of kin. In other words, your mother, father, sister, brother. Do justice not for the sake of experiencing but for the love of Allah. There has been thousands of memories thereafter obviously you know because then something steed inside you and you are never the same. I'm talking about, I was a really young fellow, I wasn't a big guy then. I still had to go to high school. I'm talking of I was probably in standard 4 or 5 whatever. I hope that answers your question.

Interviewer: Did you in anyway have a run in with the law at that time?

Kajee: Oh yes!

Interviewer: Yeah that's interesting infect.

Kajee: Okay I'll give you, you see all the books. Ok not all the books. A lot of the books were band in those days. So you couldn't obviously, at that time we had the likes of Steven Biko. You must have heard of him. Oh well you have Alan Paton he was busy with that book called "Cry the Beloved Country." But there was another book that I really loved about hi. But now that we speaking about the run in with the law. What had actually happened was just around 76's we use to go into the township now, I don’t know if you guys had met uncle Stanley, Baboo Kajeee, Yusuf Jackison, we were the guys who use to go out there in the township. I was just speaking, I attended a wedding last weekend, I met up with shorty Baboo Kajee. He belonged to what was then called the M.Y.M- the Muslim Youth Movement. At one stage we took about 40 young girls, just like you, to Durban. A dilapidated combie that we bought just for R250.00. You can imagine that thing we had to go on. But what had happened is I went into the township and we would speak to the black youngsters. We were speaking about this whole issue on the Afrikaans language now the most hated thing. I respect, the most hated thing on God's planet as far as I'm concern, is a pimp. One who will sell his own people for a price. Somebody sold me, they picked me up. I don’t know if you guys had the opportunity to meet Baboo Kajee, well you can ask him about this and he will add the last part to it. In any event in the days of apartheid we as blacks could not own a shop. So we had to have what they called a "White Norman." In other words white were the boss of the shop. Every morning we knew that wasn’t true but you know that was the law. We had a Mrs Foss that worked for us. On a morning, we had a little shop called "Car Watch." So the law came and picked me up. So at the time they picked me up they wouldn't tell me what it was all about. So I told Mrs Foss I'll be there just now. You know you stand in the shop. So as we left the shop, there were 3 of them or whatever the number is. In any event the guy spoke to me, this policeman spoke to me in English and I obviously replied in English and he continued speaking to me in English around the block. Now we going towards the police station. Three quarter way through he asked me something in Afrikaans - just one sentence. Now I grew up in a little town called Schweizer- Reneke. Now in that town even amongst ourselves we spoke Afrikaans. I'm what you would say an "Afrikaans twee tale." I speak Afrikaans language quite fluently, so when he spoke to me in Afrikaans, before I could reply, he asked me something again in English and I replied in English, not aware that he was playing a game with me. In any event we got to the police station. He seated me, the guy in front, the guy looks at me he says why don’t you want to speak Afrikaans? So I'm thinking… I said but you have been speaking English to me. So he tells me so are you calling me a liar? So I'm thinking now when this guy did this and I couldn't remember that was one particular sentence. So he asked the guy behind didn't I ask him so I turned around. When I turned around, this guy pulled me a shot, he smacked me "paah". Don't turn around he said. So he said , yes he spoke to you in Afrikaans but you didn't reply, you spoke in English. Well this thing carried on for a little while you know smacking and questioning. In any event they accused me and as usual you know these days it is a common thing wherever, no matter what. You know I was looking at a movie. My son gave it to me. It's about these youngsters from Pakistan, actually from London who were kept at Guantanamo Bay. I was looking at the whole way in which they interrogate them. I thought to myself that it is unreal that if I look back, that is exactly how they did it. So basically they want to know who's you leader. I mean who's your leader. We've got no leader. In other words what they are really saying to me that you are incapable of formulating your own principles, of thinking for yourself. There must be a leader who's instigating you to do whatever you are doing. I said I got no leader. What leader are you talking about? In any event they turned around and said there is a guy that is standing behind this door who is a witness to the fact that you were there and you did this. I said to him it's your word against mine and I got a couple more smacks because I was not supposed to question him. In any event it was the month of Ramadaan and no word of lie, I'm not a brave person. I'm like everybody else, I'm an ordinary, normal character. I was fasting that day, it was Ramadaan. Somehow there was a quietness. Honestly everything happened to be happening in slow motion. Nothing seemed to bother me, nothing seemed to trouble me. I was not scared of them at all. I was speaking to may Creator in my mind. I read a lot of poetry and these were the things that you know kept me going. In any event eventually they decided that you know, lock him up. They took me and they took my finger prints.
Then there was this policeman who used to come to the shop and he use to buy little things and he walked pass. "Hi. Hello, what are you doing here? , he asked. I said I had a problem. He said that he would sort it out. He goes there, comes back and says that I should tell them the truth and it's all over. I asked what truth is there to tell. I said whatever I had to say. He told me not to mess with his system. I told him that I never asked for his help and that you guys were going to do what you have to because you are the law. He used that "f" word and said that he was going to "f" me up. I said to him that I was in his territory and he could do with me whatever he pleased. At that point, Baboo Kajee, who I was speaking of and late Mohammed Tayob walked in. Mohammed Tayob was very good with the law and he walked in and had a couple of words and eventually called me and asked if I was fasting. I said yes, He said OK. Mr Tayob promised that at the end of Ramadaan I will come back and report this…

Interviewer: Firstly, I want to than you for giving us your time. Jazakallah. This is our token of appreciation. Thank you for giving us your time.


Interviewer: Alright now on apartheid, your role in general apartheid era. Firstly we would like to hear from you, what was the most significant event that you recall when the word apartheid comes to mind. That era when you hear that, what's the first event that comes to mind?

Kajee: You see the first thing that comes to mind is when I was very young and we were deprived – to say that you know there were place where we could not go to. To give a simple example: like Vereeniging town. People must have seen a lot of parks there. You know we couldn't go to any of those parks because the parks were for Whites only. This thing went to such an extent that you found in the Vaal Triangle, for example, there were a lot of schools, plenty of high schools, a lot of primary schools and so on. Yet, we only had one school and that school was only a primary school. It was only up to standard 5 or 6 and when we finished primary school and we had to go to high school then we had to go to Johannesburg. It was a very tiring thing because we use to leave in the dark and we use to come back in the dark because we had to travel by train at that time. This train stopped at every little station that was between Vereeniging and Johannesburg. We used to leave very early in the morning to make it by 8 o' clock at school. Coming back, again we could only board the train lets say it was always normally by 4 o'clock half 4 in the afternoon. So by the time we got home it was dard again you know, and you were tired. There wasn't much you could do.

Interviewer: As an activist did you ever have a run in with the law at any time? Any bad experiences, feelings towards the law?

Kajee: Ya, well let me put it this way that you see at that time assuming if you spoke out against apartheid or if you spoke out against any of the authorities that was committed either than government, you had to be very careful in front of whom you were speaking. What would happen is sometimes you are not aware and whatever you have spoken, this entire conversation goes to the special branch police. Now we use to have that time what you call "The Special Branch Police" and when this information gets to them and you could be rest assured that within a day they'll be right at your doorstep and pick you up. They'll pick you up and they take you away and they'll interrogate you, and then they'll quote exactly word-for-word whatever you said. This was one of the things.

Interviewer: So it was like spies sitting in your company that would then go wand …

kajee: Yes, yes. That was one of the things, yes. The other thing that I could not forget and will always remain in my mind is in 1976. We were playing cricket and we belonged to an association that was opposing the government. We were having an inter-provincial game between Transvaal and Natal. We hosted the game in Johannesburg. I was then the vice president of the Transvaal cricket team association. That particular evening we were feeding our guests from Natal with supper. We were picked up by the police and taken to John Vorster Square at that time. When we got to John Vorster Square, they put us in a lift. This lift didn't go up, it went down about three or four floors. When we were there they put us in a room and they just left us there, but what happened was that there was another room next to the room in which we were. There was a wall separating the two rooms. In this other room they brought in black children. I'm not exaggerating, but you knew they were children. I would say ages maybe between 9 – 14, little children. We could hear screams. They were taking these children and they were bashing them against the wall. They were saying that these are children that are activists because at that time in 1976 there was the Soweto riots. These riots were caused by the school children. The riots were of course a story. The government was forcing that education must be done through Afrikaans and the children opposed this and this was the Soweto uprising.
In 1976 and we were at the wrong place at the right time or whatever, but we actually witnessed this interrogation and this torture that was taking place. How they were treating little children that were innocent.
Now there were many incidents that took place, like for example, they use to have what they call the pass laws. Now a pass is like what you and I would call today identity book. But this particular pass book was a very very big and bulky thing and it was only meant that the blacks must carry this and like we use to employ domestic servants like we still do. But you could not keep a domestic servant in your premises. Like he or she could not sleep at your place. When it gets dark they have to go home and that they have to be registered. If they are not registered, that means that you have employed them and you haven't registered them that means that they are I mean er you are employing them illegally so to say. And if and we use to get this type of raids. The police used to raid our homes. They would come right into your house and the whole excuse was that they looking for domestics. I'm not exaggerating but at once they came right into my father's bedroom at night and they went under the bed to see if we were not hiding the domestics. Now these are all types of things that took place and Like I mentioned to you earlier that whenever we opposed it or we said anything against then you would also become the victim.

Interviewer: Em, did you personally ever sort of feel the abuse?

Kajee: Yes,yes,yes. This happened once, you see I was belonging; this was actually quite a later stage in my life that I joined a movement called the Muslim Youth Movement, the MYM. What happened was that I was once picked up. They picked me up and they took me into the interrogation room and this fellow was passing questions such that the MYM is completely opposed to the government and that the MYM is an organisation that wants to see to the overthrow of the government and so on and so forth. As much as I tried to convince him that this was not the line of the MYM. Then he had the Holy Quraan in his office and he took his filthy hand and he started bashing the Quraan on top. He said in Afrikaans; I wouldn't really like to quote what he said because they were very very derogatory. But it was something to the effect that you know you Muslims believe in this nonsense or shit whatever you call it and he was banging the Quraan and when he was banging the Quraan and I lost my cool and I retaliated. When I retaliated to him I didn't notice another one walking and he had a bay ton in his hand and he clapped me with his bay ton. Still do you know I didn't jut give in to it because deep in my heart I felt that nobody insults my Quran and you know to get away with it. This is one of those interrogations that I went through. The other one was like I mentioned to you earlier that when we were arrested for that cricket thing in John Vorster Square. What they did was they would take a chalk you know and they make a square on the floor, a small little square and they tell you to stand on that. You know you must just stand in that square you not allowed to move. You must stand on that spot one way and they leave you to stand there and what happened was I was standing all the time and you feel very lame afterwards. I wanted to I mean I wanted to urinate. I wanted to go to the toilet and I couldn't because he wouldn't allow me and I just stood on that spot eventually, to what an extend, that I wet myself completely. This was a very you know I would say a very nasty incident you know that happened then. What they did was they just you know they would just keep you there and all the time they kept questioning you. You give them an answer, no your answer is not good enough. Then on your answer they ask you another question and they kept carrying on like that. This thing must have carried on for I think like 36-48 hours. Eventually when they didn't find anything you know. I don't know, maybe the help of Allah you know they released us.

Interviewer: So in this MYM more-or-less how many members did it include?

Kajee: you mean when we were there in the cricket thing?

Interviewer: yeah, no the Muslim Youth Women. The MYM, how many members did it consist of?

Kajee: the MYM consist of quite a big organization. It was MYM of South Africa. I was actually the chairman of the Vereeniging branch. We had branches all over South Africa, the MYM.

Interviewer: What was your attitude towards politics after these bad experiences? Did you become despondent? Did you not want to become involve anymore? What was your attitude like?

Kajee: You mean whether I'll still take part in politics?

Interviewer: ya, ya, ya

Kajee: Well look lemme put it to you this way. You see the politics that I advocate today is I advocate the politics of Islam. I don’t look at Islam purely just as a religion but I look at Islam as a way of life. That Islam constitutes everything it constitutes a family life. Islam is in your work place. Its in your how would I say, you know it's in your work place, it's outside, it's all over because Allah is all knowing and all seeing. The most important thing that what I aspire for, I mean you know I mean this is my inspiration in life is to establish Allah's deen on earth. This is the ultimate desire that I have and of course over and above that I would still feel that you know is to unite the entire Muslim Ummah under one banner that is the banner of Lailahah Ililah.

Interviewer: Uncle… if I can ask you a question. I remember sitting here when I was still at school in the 80's, and you were very involved with the political movements even then. Describe to us your your your involvement you know the fact that you were part of the MYM yet at the same time you were part of other structures as well as that were affiliated to the ANC perhaps the MDM, the mass democratic movement or you know because the boycotts that were involved and again you witnessed many people chasing you, many police hitting people because many children besides these here, they think that apartheid is a myth you know. It's a legend it never sort of… Can you point that picture for us of how you actually were involved beyond the MYM?

Kajee: See like I mentioned when I was young you know look there was always seniors and to answer your question you see at that time the seniors were mostly affiliated to the ANC, the African National Congress. The ANC I'm sure many of you know was a Banned body, a banned organization. But what use to happen was people use to work very very secretly. Now we were one of the you know the the er letter carriers or the pamphlet carriers let us put it that way. You see you that I mean that would come in from outside. There was one of my colleagues I don't know how many of you may have heard of him or may have not heard of him. For the person by the name of Ahmed Timol. Now Ahmed Timol and myself we studied together. We were in high school together in Johannesburg. Ahmed became a teacher you see and what happened at that time they could Ahmed you see and they caught him with a lot of literature and when they caught him with this literature you see they took him away and in the evaluation they were trying to feed you know, dish out things from him which they could not and eventually look I,m er still convinced up till today that Ahmed Timol was killed by them. That they threw him down when they could not get the information that maybe they wanted. Like if you take, oh yes, one of the other things I forgot to mention to you was that I even went on a post there education. Because then I went to a school that was a private school. The school that was run by the Congress. But it was then called the Transvaal Indian Congress, TIC. The TIC was a body that was affiliated to the ANC. This school was in Johannesburg. It was like a private school. We had multi-racial teachers. We had all types of teachers teaching us. I can even quote to you that if you look at the two brothers that sit in parliament. One is named Mr Essop Pahad who is in the president's office and his brother, Aziz Pahad, who is a deputy foreign minister. Both of them were with me at the same school. They both graduated from there. They finished there matric there.

There was an incident which also I must mention to you, that when it came about, I think it was in1958 when the call came that we must boycott potatoes. Now what happened at that time, you see every child that was going to school, everyone, be it in the primary school or high school. You know when you had a school break then the children couldn't do without chips. All use to go to the fish and chips shop you know and buy chips. The call came that you must boycott potatoes and we all wandered why you must boycott potatoes. But then the truth came to us that the reason is that potatoes were grown mostly in Bethal. You call it today the Mpumalanga province. Potatoes came from there and most of the labour that was used on the potato farms were convict labour. They use to take the convicts and make the convicts work. They use to beat the convicts up and there were many convicts that were killed and they were buried on those farms and on top of their dead bodies they were growing potatoes. So this is when the call came that we had to boycott potatoes. We were very heavily involved at that time together of course with Essop Pahad and Aziz Pahad when we were going to the government schools and we were telling the pupils not to eat potatoes and then the matter went to the police. The police came and we had to run. Fortunately you know we did not get arrested you know we escaped arrest and so on.

Interviewer: Do you still have any contacts with Aziz Pahad and his brother?

Kajee: Yes, yes.

Interviewer: What about other fellow activists? Do you still keep in contact with them and how?

Kajee: Ya, we whenever we meet you know we still speak, discuss there's a lot of things you know that we discuss and so on.

Interviewer: Then what was your career like after the unbanning of the ANC?

Kajee: Look my career is been the same, I've been in business you know and that's it. But like I say look of course you know you do a lot of part in community here. In Roshnee you know so you know with sports and education and all those things you and er very er I would say very very recently because it was just before apartheid went did the Roshnee High School here had a principal by the name of Mr Percy Peters. I don't know if any of you heard of him. But there was a principal here by the name of Mr Percy Peters and I was on the education committee at that time. That was about the only school we had in Roshnee. It was a primary and high school all in one. All the time what we were trying you we were trying to sort of get the best for our children you know. On many things we were opposed and opposed by none other than the principal… that was the first thing. The second thing was that he was very very anti-Muslim or anti-Islam. I mean, I mean this is a fact. What happened that time there was a little boy you know that come from a farm and they came to reside here in Roshnee. Now according to the Standerton norms that time this little boy, his granny was an Indian, Muslim Indian and his grandfather I think was a black person. So obviously his mother was you know a mixture. Now that wanted to put this little boy in school and they came to me and I said why not. I said at that time the government said that education is compulsory. I said well if eduction is compulsory then this child should be accepted in this school. I took this child to the school to enroll him. What happened was I was asked a lot of nasty questions you know like I was asked the question who is the child's father. As much as I tried to tell the principal, I said look the child don't have a father. Thinking that he would understand but no he kept insisting. Eventually there was a very nasty incident that took place between me and the school and I had a go at him and I said you know on one hand your government claims that education is compulsory on the other hand you got so many red tapes here, now what is it that you are up to? You want to educate the children or you don't want to educate the children. After I said all that again like I mentioned you know I was picked up by the security guards for having a go at the principal.

Interviewer: Do you ever feel that your efforts in fighting against apartheid may have gone unnoticed in some way or another?

Kajee: Look the most important thing that I look at it this way that I'm not here to look for credit or for anything like that. I personally feel that you know if the efforts that we put in and if that efforts brought any fruits and if it brought about improvement then I would say that that is a reward, I would say that that is more reward than anything else.

Interviewer: Hmm, that's most important. Now if you look at it sort of if you look at it in a different light, at the moment, presently we don't seem to see many Indians and particularly Muslims involved in politics any longer. What is your feeling about this and is there any advice that you would like to share with us in terms of getting involved in and being a part of it?

Kajee: You see what I personally think that er this is how I'm viewing situation right now. There is a very big conspiracy that's taking place in the world. Now, this conspiracy is to such an extent that I'm sure you know that many of you young people must be noticing this to that every second Muslim for a Muslim you know is regarded as a terrorist or as an insurgent. More than anything else you see what I see through this is this is nothing but to bring about a new world order. This is definitely taking place. Now in order to get about this new world order the biggest stumbling block is Islam. Islam is the biggest stumbling block and moreover the Muslims. If you take our learned scholars today irrespective of which country they are, irrespective of which school of thought they belong, the mere fact that whoever got the Quraan and have got the Hadith and so are people that can enlighten you, are people that can take you to the truth and they can warn you against a lot of atrocities and so on that's taking place. Now how to get rid of this, you see its simple what do they do is that because they are in charge of the media so the media is controlled by them whether it's in South Africa. I can tell you safely that in the whole of Africa as well as in the whole of the Middle East as well as the whole of Europe, the whole of America and so on the media is controlled by them. Be it the newspapers be it the radios be it the television and so on…