Dr.: The whole vibrant community of Soweto was moved to Medowlands and uh one of the songs that came out of that area was Medowlands Setando song. You know many people said you’ll hear what the Whites say, they, the Whites are saying that we should move to Medowlands but the stotsis will say no. There is no way we’re going to move to Medowlands. We going to stay right where we are, because actually there’s a song that came out and that was uh uh uh a very well known song and a very liberating type of a song. Also, if you look at all Mandela and uh uh… I remember Walter Sisulu used to come to our house once… and we were sitting down to dinner and no I think we just finished dinner and I remember his words he says “ I guess I’m late for supper”. You know and that was his words. So he was a very a good friend of my fathers and Robert Sibuke and all of them came from Everton area. Robert Sibuke, Walter Sisulu. Everton was the hot bed. Klip Town was the hot bed. Elexander town too was a hot bed. So people had a lot of guts I must say. Because you know to take the Dom Pass was a document was given to everybody to carry. And the Africans… and at any given time they were given to produce it. So they were the least equipped community that had to carry the most burdens. That is why if you looked at all the locations, they situated away from the cities. Yeah it’s like they just wanted everything to be white. And the problem with the… and the problem with the White government is uh if they just looked at the country as a whole. And said this is South Africa. This is the number of electricians we need. This is the number of plumbers we need. This is what we need for the development of the country. Looked at it instead of a very narrow way… as a very broad minded approach to the whole complex uh uh idea of running a country. We wouldn’t be in the position that we are now. Never. They caused it. And you know all this that you see now. I would say eighty to ninety percent of the blame must rest on them. Because if you, if you grew up annd you got an African that grows up with you and you have all the priveledges. You go to school. By the time you are the age that you are now, you have the economic power to buy what you like. Yu want to buy a radio. You want to buy a dress. You want to buy a shoe. You’ve got that. Her aspirations are exactly the same as yours, but she’s not equipped she’s been deprived of it. So what does she do. She stands next to you. You grew up together, but look at where you stand economically and where does she stand economically. You see that’s a very, a very big difference. So uh you know we must. I see a lot of Africans now that I’m in Sandton. I see the Africans that I see how they have educated themselves. I admire them to bits. There are, they speak so well. They’ve got such good manners., you know. They come through and they in good, very good positions. And I’m very very happy when I see them. And I see lawyers, I see accountants, I see people in financial positions, you know. I see doctors. I meet a lot of doctors. Many times…our…you see the problem with the Aparthied thing it also brainwashes you. You look down upon the African. You also have your own dicrimination. You also become very discriminatory. And when you see them, you cannot believe it. That how can they be a doctor, how can she be a financial uh person you know. How can she run a company like that. All these are inborne prejudices. Well, not inborne, you have been brainwashed basically to think like that. But they are capable, they are very good. You and I are like them a lot. All these things that happen are probably ten to seven percent of the people you know. And majority of the population are blacks and majority of the crime are going to be perpertrated. But there’s a lot of white collar crimes as well.
RIS: Earlier you made mention you know of people like Walter Sisulu coming home. And just you know after dinner and you know you made mention they were around. Do you still have contact with these people? And do you have maybe contact with you know fellow activists (that come into mind)?
Dr.: Unfortunately none hey. I was just, the last two persons were Mrs and Mr Mandela. Our ex president Mr Mandela. I was like uh uh a personal position to him for a copla years. But then… they… because look people passed on, Walter Sisulu and all passed on. And uh Desmond Tutu I didn’t really know him that well but uh Katherie and so on. I mean we read about him in the papers, we meet him every now and then. Well I’ve met him three times since he’s been released. Essop Pahad, Aziz… they, we all grew up together. So uh yeah it’s still ther Ameena Cachalia you know. And then even when they were in exile. Molly Cachalia in Bombay. I mean he used to come to our house and he used to sit there and discuss things and so on. But he was also in exile and so was our ex foreign (minister) yeah what’s his name? uh Alfred Mzoz he used to come to our house in Bombay. He used to stay there with us. He used to sleep in the house you know uh three four days, and then he would go back to Delhi to the foreign office there. It happens all these people are yeah not much. I just recently went to …uh Robben Island and it brought back a whole lot of memories you know. Yeah yeah.
RIS: Uhm what was your career like after your…uh the unbanning of the ANC?
Dr.: Well you know whenever you lived in fear in the Apartheid era. And then you lived in fear post ninety-four because of all the crime and things upsurges that happened. First nearly I was hijacked three times, I’ve been held at gun point nini times. So you know I had it on both sides. First you had the proper fear with the Whites and you have the fear now with the African people you know well a portion of the African people. So uh I just never let it get me down. You know I just stood up and I just keep a straight face and I just forget about it emmediately. And I don’t sort of hold on to it and let it affect me otherwise you can’t live with it. Yeah.
RIS: Uhm do you ever feel that you are uhm your efforts have gone unnoticed?
Dr.: No I don’t think so. Not at all.
RIS: Now in the new South Africa. You don’t see many Indians especially Muslims getting involved in the government,and getting involved in politics. What do you think abuot it you know from your point of view, what do you think the future of our country holds for us Muslims?
Dr.: I just feel it’s very sad that none of us get involved in politics. I think we living in a little emplay because even during the Aparthied times there was some Muslim people amongst us that used to say thank God for Aparthied you know. Therefore we’ve got our own little ghetto that we can live in. You see and we can be with one another. I mean that is how Muslim people think. Generally that even now I find… uh I don’t find Muslims thinking at an intellectual level. Because if you look basically what’s happening today everything is… it’s actually clautrophobic the way they acting. They very small minded, they very narrow minded. I mean if I have to write a death certificate of a Muslim I’ll say he died of narrow mindedness. I mean you know they are so narrow minded. Uh… I don’t see any thinktanks I don’t see… you know in religion if youlook at the prophet… uh this thing there’s a social aspect. I don’t see anything happening on a social scale. I don’t see any thinktanks coming out with new ideas. I don’t see any creativity. I don’t see anybody with innovative. You know it’s basically as if someone has brainwashed you so much, that you just think along this small and narrow mind. You are bombarded by Radio Islam. You go to the mosque they bombard you more. Eventually you come home, mentally you’re a curtain. Nothing in your mind.
RIS: So what advice do you now pass on to us?
Dr.: I would tell you that go out there. There’s a very big world. Just stay with the five pillars and you’ll be very happy, just the five pillars. Forget about the foundations. There are too many foundations. The five pillars. Handle the nicely, and then you’re fine. Don’t… don’t labour them you know. That is part of being a Muslim and just do whatever is necesarry and carry on. I see people sitting and reading the Quraan and they read the Quraan and they say that to recite the Quraan and to hear it loudly, that in itself is Thawaab. It’s a blessing. How can that be? When your creater is a scientist? Your creater must be a scientist. He cannot be anything else. How will he put all the heavens? How will he put all the planets? How will he put all the stars? How will he run everything? The weather you know there’s a million things that have to happen. The rivers have to flow, the mountains have to be there. The ice caps has to be there. He’s got to be a scientist to be able to do that. And you think like a moron. So if you want to be close to God you’ve got to be… try and have all the attributes that he has, understand? I always tell the people in the morning, you’re Muslim, that’s fine. You’ve got your pillars and so on. But put on your shirt and your pants and then go to work. And your asset is being, be sincere, be honest, have intergrity. Be reliable, be trustworthy. Be sensitive to the people of other people and then be… be punctual. I’ve never been late in my life for any appointment. In my life. If I’m late I will phone and say look I’m running five minutes late. I’ll actually phone to say. This is my habit. All my life. Fatima is the same, we never late, we never keep anybody waiting. If I’ve got an appoinment with you, if I’m five minutes late, it means I’m more important than you, tell me? So that’s my appeal. Thae aim is to have an active mind, you must think. The most thing… the biggest thing that differentiates you from an animal, is your mind and your brain. And sometimes you have to think differently from everybody else. You can’t just go with the mill. You have to sit up and say is this guy… what did he say? Does it make sense? And then think in terms of your Almighty, that your almighty. You there are (laugh) I’m digressing abi but you’ve got the athiest, and you’ve got the agnostic. Then you got a theist. A theist, he says God created the heavens and earth, and now he comes below the heavens and is involved in your daily affairs. Did he stand and go to the wee? Did he wear his trousers here above the thing? Did he do this? God is involved in all that. Now God, can God who is such a super being be involved in mundane affairs? That is insulting God. How can you say that God can be involved in daily little mundane affairs? In other words you reducing him to a human. I’m going to make God happy. Is God a little baby? I’m going to make God sad. You know we talk like that without even thinking. We talking about our creater who is a million times more than you and me. Then you get the daist. The daist says no. God created the heavens and the earth but he’s above all that. He lives in the heavens, he does his things. You on earth, his given you your brains, sort out your problems. Therefore you’ve got the African, you’ve got the Chinese, you got the Japanese, you got everything. And the only Asian nation,that I have respect for today is the Japanese. It’s the only other country that has got order. You go there, you can find a train, you can find a telephone, there’s cleanliness, there’s everything that a Muslim is supposed to be. That’s what they are. If you go to the Western countries, exactly the same. If you’re a handicapped, they’ve got a parking bay for you. If you’re handicapped, they’ve got a wheelchair for you, that they’ve invented and operated and they’ve got a ramp that you can use to go. So in other words although you’re handicapped,you can… you still feel like a human. Show me any Asian country, Muslim country, where you can feel that. And we boast and we talk. You see so this is… these are the things that you must get away from. Rise above the rest. Open your eyes and open your mind and say but how can that be? We went to a this thing here, we went here to a…a …a wedding on Sunday. It was Zohr time, everybody made Wudhu. Go in to the bathroom and see what they did to the bathroom. I went and picked up everything because I was ashamed. All the you know hand towels and things like that, so it was like there was a riot. I took everythng and I just put it into the corner. Because if those people had to come and see what are these people upto. Is this what the religion teaches? Sorry you wanted to ask something?
RIS: Uh doctor I want to ask you in terms of Apartheid. When did you start uh having an interest for golf and did the Apartheid ever stop you from uh pursuing a maybe profession or career?
Dr.: I was a very good bowler. I was a very good cricket bowler. I could have made the Springbok side. I really tell you that because I was very very good. But I used to play, I remember I went to Durban, I studied in Durban. Now after school I used to come out and just sit there and watch them on the playing fields. And wish that I could be playing cricket there and showing them you know whatever little skills I had and so on. Because I really wanted to be a bowler. Yeah so in that way I just felt I never had the opportunity, never had the chance. And everytime that I was at school, I always wanted to be in the sport. I wanted to play tennis, I wanted to play hockey, I wanted to… but we couldn’t. It wasn’t allowed. Here Apartheid is, I went to Lusaka to visit my brother in law, just to get out of South Africa. Because it’s stiffling during the Apartheid years. And there he would play. He was playing golf one afternoon, he said come along. And I took a club and I started hitting and I found that I was hitting quite okay you know. And then I came back home to South Africa in the mid seventies, forgot all about it. And then the eighties there was this desire again to go and play. So I used to play on the velds. I used to take a club and just go knock a ball on the veld. I remember I had a seveniron, and we made little holes in the ground in the veld and you know I used to just hit. And then finally we could play at Ohenrimori. But you had to be there at half past four in the morning. We should get up at four o’clock, get the caddie and go there at half past four. I mean you see the caddie disappearing in the mist because there’s no light. And you had to be off there by seven o’clock. And if they saw you there, the Afrikaaners, they really insulted him. They said so many things you know. But it’s the type of game that once you… you always want to play, you want to get somewhere. So you had to duck and dive. Whatever you could to get there. I remember going to Crowngrounds and telling her that like on a Thursday afternoon I’d like to play and they refused. I stood my ground and I said no but I want to play. No you must come on a Monday and play with the caddies. I said I’m sorry I’m a doctor I don’t play with the caddies. And uh on Monday it’s a busy day for me. So then the committee had a meeting. And I was the first guy thet played golf at Crowngrounds during the Apartheid years. And the finally after three or four years there was a Mr. Tate there who was running the whole thing. And uh he said to me, okay doctor you can become a member now if you want to. I said okay I don’t want to become a member, not until it’s open for everybody. You understand? I don’t want preferential treatment so I’ll keep coming on a Thursday and playing. And that is how it went.
Lady: And what about Reshaad?
Dr.: Oh yeah my son Reshaad. I think we made an apointment for him in Vereeniging with a pro, to go and get some lessons and they refused. So then I went and I bought a whole lot of books. And I started studying the books and learning from the books. And I started teaching him from the books. And he came on quite nicely, he was playing quite well and so on. And I bought finally you know you go through so many books. Finally got a book called The Modren Fundamentals Of Golf. I think I got it here somewhere. You can see there’s lines drawn through it, every page, little notes here, there, everywhere. What do we know about golf? You know those years especially. So it’s just through the books you know that I got some incling, some idea. And uh where do you play as well. That one day we went to Durban and uh there was a lady. And uh you know Durban is even worse than Joburgh. So uh I went upto her, I said uh you know I’m from Johannesburgh. I’ve been teaching my son, I don’t know whether I’m on the right track or not, but I see you’re giving lessons here. Can you please just have a look at him you know? And she had a look at him and uh she actually complimented me and said you’ve done a wonderful job. Just carry on with whatever you’re doing, and just let him go and hit more and more balls in the range. But then the structure in South Africa was such that you know he… there’s one tournament a year. You gotta particapate in that tournament, and if you miss it, you miss the cut. You miss it by one or two, you gotta wait another year. And so the years dragged by. And you can’t just make it in the first year, it’s very hard. You need a lot of experience, you need a lot of eexposure and so on. So he was in the uh uh uh under fourteens you know. He was doing very well those years. And then when he grew up, there wa no where for him to go play and no no other Indian players. Because you could only play with the Indians. We didn’t know any Whites of Africans never had… that were playing there that time, so that is how it happened. But him too, it wasn’t easy for him. I remember taking him to..to ..to what is it called here in Vereeniging? The Magobe Fountain. I should tak him on the coldest day of the year. Early morning, when it’s frozen, ice and everything. And I should say lets go and play. And he should freeze, absolutely freeze. And I said it doesn’t matter if it’s cold, it’s cold. So we used to get stones and put it into the oven nd warm it up. And put it into the pockets, and warm your hands with it and now go. And sometimes the water, you could see the ice floating on the water that time of the morning. And he would finish the round and I tell him now you know what cold is, never complain about cold. And I took him once when it was raining the whole day. I made him play the whole day in the rain. So I told him now you know what it is like being… never complain about rain. Then I took him to Durban once. And I was sick, under going an operation and so on. When I got up from my bed. And it was blowing. It was like this on the coast, and I took him there. He was hitting the ball and there was this little fellow. And the wind blows the ball this way and that way, and he sat down and he was crying you know. I said get up and one day you’ll master this course. So we finished everything, and I said now you know what it feels like playing in the wind. Then I took him on an extremely hot day. So mentally, I prepared him in every possible way that I felt that he needed to be a strong person. But generally you see our people are like that. They very weak. Everything is a …a problem. And if I could send that child, I would have sent him to America, to one of those schools in America you know. Where they teach you to be a man. Where nothing is too difficult. You see how many people do you see climbing Mount Everest. Do you ever see an Indian man there? It’s in India. But the Whites are climbing from all. Have you ever seen an Indian climbing a mountain? Why? What’s wrong with us? Look at our Indian team. There’s no discipline. There’s no discipline. And where are we going to learn this? So if you wat to get discipline. In everything there must be discipline. And that’s what gives you strength. Any more questions? Steve Biko, out of all the Apartheid activists, that is the man I admire most. He had no fear. They mutilated him, but he would stand up and say, “I’m not your kaffar, you are not my boss”. And the White man would smack him and hit him. And punch him but he would still get up and say. That is guts.
Mr. Sujee: Jazaakallah
Lady: Let me make tea now
RIS: No aunty
Lady: Your grandfather was a strong man, we know him very well, very punctual, he was somebody
Interveiw with Doctor Jasat and RIS Independent Journalists and Mr. Abdullah Sujee(The underlined words spelling may be wrong)
Dr.: You know first was that uh you know my they kept a watch on what we were doing. My mail was, it went through the senses. The phones were tapped and then of course you know the… I was banned so that I could not move around in this country. I was confined to Johannesburgh for ten years, following that of coure the number of prisons I had to visit.
RIS: What was your attitude like towards politics after those run ins or bad experiences with the law?
Dr.: Sorry repeat that?
RIS: (Repeat)
Dr.: You see for me politics is not a proffesion. It’s a fight against injustice in this world. And a Muslim. To be a true Muslim, you have to fight also for injustice. You know there’s a saying of our Prophet. There’s few stages when you see oppresion one is that you keep quiet and say it’s bad. Second is that you speak out against it that is you take an active part physically to bring about changes. As a Muslim one has no other option but to carry out a struggle against what we thought or atleast what I thought was unfair and unjust in the country of my birth.
RIS: Um do you still have contact with your fellow activists that may be in the government at the moment and do you keep in touch with them?
Dr. Yes I have contact. And I’ve been in, I was in parliament for ten years. Some of them were in parliament. A lot of them are no longer living. They have past on. There is quite a number still around. Some in this area. Take Everton for instance, Suliman Nathie who was the secretary of the council of Indian congress. And then of course Dr. Shibd Salloojee. Parents lived in the Vaal triangle, he’s also still around. Still around, still active. Quite a number of them.
RIS: A side from keeping in contact with people in the government or in parliement. Do you still have contact with your fellow activists and comrades, that may not be in parliament?
Dr.: Yes we still meet them on occasions. You know at functions, at funerals, marriages and social functions. We meet some of them.
RIS: What was your career like after the unbanning of the ANC?
Dr.: Well after the unbanning of the ANC I was elected to parliament. I served ten years in parliament. I was on three committees. First was the health community and then was the sectical coloral committee and the third one, I was appointed by Mr. Mandela on uh called the ethics committee, we should look into functioning or non functioning and corruption of members of parliament.
RIS: Did you ever feel that your efforts may have gone unnoticed?
Dr.: Never felt that way. I mean hundreds of people participated. But the changes that have come about are not through the efforts of one person. It’s not Mandela who brought freedom. It’s the effort of hundreds of people who struggled to bring about this change. So my effort was a minute effort against the struggle of Apartheid to bring about a just society.
RIS: Back to the topics of riots, and could you maybe explain to us any bad sights that you may have seen? Some of the worst riots that you may have been part of or witnessed? And something that we tend to hear and it’s not something very pleasant, something called necklacing, could explain that?
Dr.: No, unfortunately I have never witnessed such necklacing. No, I haven’t so I can’t give you any information on that.
RIS: What about riots, some of the worst ones, could you just tell us really what is was about?
Dr.: Riots. When one went to demonstration, there were police marching and people with batons and that. I was at the congress of the people, where the freedom charter was… uh founded. And I remember that Sunday afternoon hudrends of policemen pinching the grounds in Kliptown, tearing up posters, throwing people around, beating them up. You know because I was there at that historic occasion.
RIS: What’s your veiw on the present South Africa. Do you have hope for it?
Dr.: Absolutely otherwise I wouldn’t be here. I would’ve left this country many years ago. There’s hope, there’s. South Africa has a great future. We’ve only had twelve years of democracy. It has a great future. You’ve got one of the best constitutions, finest constitutions in the world. And things have worked out, you know when the change took place, people were worried. That they would be killed and murdered and they would be raped and their houses looted. Nothing of that sort. It was a revolution without much violence, or very little violence.
RIS: Regarding the youth of South Africa, like uhm us. How do you see us moving towards leadership in this country?
Dr.: Well… uh the said thing is that you haven’t gone through that experience that we went through. So you haven’t felt the anger and the wrath that we felt. But I think that there’s hope for our people. There are no more restrictions. You can go ahead in your studies and whatever path you choose. There’s freeedom in this country. A great future for the young people of this country.
RIS: In terms of, on that point, we don’t really see many Indians and particularly Muslims you know getting involved in government, getting involved in politics. If that was sort of past on to you, who are you going to pass it on to? What are your feelings about this? And I mean you know back to what do you see our future as Muslims and in terms of the youth, what do you see there?
Dr.: The unfortonate thing is that things have been so smooth and calm that there was no need for our young people to struggle. So you know they haven’t gone into that feild. I hope that you know that our people participate in the running of this country. Otherwise we will be marginalised. And our history, the contribution that the Muslim community or the Indian community made will be forgotten. So unless our young people make some interest in the running of the… not politics but the running affairs of this country. It might not be to our disadvantage, you know we will be forgotten as a seection of the community that has lost control of it’s past.
RIS: Generally are you optimistic though, is there hope for us?
Dr.: Yes there is hope for us. There is definitely hope for us.
RIS: What message would you like to share with us as the youth and as the Muslim youth and students. What message would you like to share with us in terms of opportunities that now have shown themselves?
Dr.: The message I would like to give to students is that Islam is a wholistic religion. It’s not only confined to prayers and you know giving alms and looking after the orphans and attaining to the aged. It is about participating in every aspect of life in this country. And as Muslims we should do that. Become part of South Africa and make South Africa a country where people can be proud of and people look up on us as the ideal society and this the youth can make a contribution to.
RIS: Now in terms of our book, and this project that we trying out, we hoping willl be successful. What are your feelings about it? Is there any advice you can pass on?
Dr. Yes, you know a history in this country has been distorted and one sided. We learnt about the Voortrek and the you know Afrikaaners who went into the interland. About the Brittish who came here and took over, but little has been written about the inigenous people of this country. Of the various other communities. And I think it should be recorded and I think you’ll make a contribution to understanding our past and hope for our future. If you have such statements in society.
RIS: Doctor saab in terms of when you were a young man. We all know men loved their sport. So in Apartheid times what was… who was your icon in terms of sport, and in terms of the sports world? And what sports if any do you play?
Dr. Well, you see I grew up in a place called Vrededorp and there was one little ground there not turfed you know. And what would happen is that on Saturday during Winter they would play rugby and on Sunday would be soccer. And in between when the ground was not occupied by others we’d go and play soccer. In the summer of course we played cricket. But most of the cricket played was in the streets of Vrededorp. You know tomatoe boxes would be stumps. And the of course the streets hectored and sometime of course dangerous because the ball would hit the window panes smashing it. Sometimes we had to run for life you see. And that was it. But the two main sports was soccer and cricket. We had no swimmimg pools, never learnt to swim. Various other sports were played. Only got to know about others sports after PT was introduced to this country. Where we knew about netball and hockey and you know the other sports in this country.
RIS: Did you have ant bad experiences when it came to your sports? You know did you have any run ins with the law?
Dr.: Yes. Not with the law but a lot of grazed knees. Bumps on the head, falling on the ground. Those were the experiences that we had. Not really with the law but often with the residents in the area. We played… because it was confined spaces and you know you would hit the ball into someones front room or smash his window. So that is the run ins we had with the… we lived and played.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor obviously when I looked at you. I look at you as… as my senior. And when the pupils look at me, they look at me as their senior. When you look at Mandela, he’s your senioir. How did… what was that relationship between you, Mr. Mandela, late Yusuf dadoo. Explain to us that comaraderie, because that friendship made it such that you people change the history of the country.
Dr.: My rection towards politics was in the 1949 riot in Durban. What had happened was that the Donsol Indian Congress appealed for funds for all the victims, not only Zulus but Indians. And I had heard that they needed people to address envelopes. So I went up to the Congress offices in town. And what they would do was give me a box of envelopess. It was brown envelopes and one page or two pages of the telephone directory you know torn out. And then I would insert and put the appeal in that. Going to the Congress offices I came into contact with Yusuf Dadoo, Malwe Cachalia, Solly Nathie from Everton. There was Ahmed Kathrada, young man. That got me interested, but prior to that, you see my family had the history of some political involvement. My father was brought into this country, or invited into this country by Suliman Asvat. Who was the associate of Ghandi, and at one time chairman of the Congress. That was my one association. The other one was my elder brother Mohammed, went in to the you know, they had a … it was the law against the asiatic representation act. Where they pumped themselves in Durban, Namilo Road. And he was in one of the batches that did that. So there was already that stimulation from the family.
Mr. Sujee: So it was in the family.
Dr.: In a way, yes it was.
Mr. Sujee: Where you ever tortured in prison?
Dr.:No. What had happened was that when we were first arrested, they had actually killed Bapda Sallojee, so many were evicted forth. When they arrested me. They wanted me to make a statement that I wasn’t being tortured. Which I refused to do, but how to say I’ve been unjustifiably arrested. It was called the ninety days. I was picked up under the ninety days. So not really tortured. But some people were tortured. Fortunately I was never tortured.
Mr. Sujee: Do you know of people who were tortured?
Dr.: Yes, I know of people who were tortured. There was a lawyer who had a fear of dogs, and what they would do was, not physically torture but bring a dog into his cell you know. That sort of thing. But others were beaten and physically manged in many ways.
Mr. Sujee: We met with Abdul Samid Karani. I’m sure Dr. Jasat knows his involvment. And he spoke about the neck lacing which was very…
Dr.: He saw that.
Mr. Sujee: He saw that. And one thing he pressed on my, or our mind was that he said in Eskor, there was these huge furnaces. The talk amongst the comrades, they say it was’nt a rumour. It was the talk amongst the comrades that many of the children were actually thrown in that furnace once they were killed. Would you believe something like that?
Dr.: Yes, now the story has now appeared that this doctor what’s his name… Walter Bason was part of the group that would anaesthize these people and throw them into the sea, take them into a plane. A lot of the activists disappeared with no trace of them left. Some would be burried, they have dug up these graves and they have had big burials taking place. So that has taken place.
Mr. Sujee: So this story that Abdul Samid Karani told us, because you see we want to photograph this furnace in Eskor and put that on our front cover. Because when he told me that I said Insha-Allah we must write a book on this because it’s going to disappear. No one will hear the truth. And his daughter, his Attiyah Karani you know that’s howcome she’s here. So if I had to tell you that story, if I was an activist you’d actually believe it? There’s some truth in it?
Dr.: Well, you know I can’t vouch for that. I don’t know about that. Being thrown in the furnace no. Honestly I won’t be able to.
Mr. Sujee: It’s not possibe given what they did?
Dr.: They did bad things. But I wouldn’t, I’m not sure about what they did there you know.
RIS: Uhm you mentioned you know, back to the point where they were very badly beaten and very severely beaten. We also heard that they were beaten to such an extent that some lost their lives, and others at this point have gone unheared.
Dr.: Yes, there’s a number of Muslims that lost their time. One was the Bapda Salloojee who was thrown. There was an Imaam Haroun who was accused of suggesting that he slipped on a soap and killed himself. There was this boy from Azaadville, what’s his name again not Simuljee, he was mudered by the police also. Can’t get his name now. Ahmed Timol yes, he was killed by the police. No the police were brutal, the security police.
Mr. Sujee: They were called the special branch?
Dr.: The special branch. They were absolutely you know ruthless.
Mr. Sujee: When you saw the changes happening in 1994 when Mandela was released. Did you cry out of happiness or was it just… explain your emotion to us you know?
Dr.: You see we never believed that freedom would come in our lifetime, so when this happened… I mean absolutely wonderfull I mean you know you felt that it was worthwhile having struggled for freedom in this country. And to live n this country. You know one becomes today… one can go to any part of the world and you say you from South Africa, you considered, tour reputation is there you see. So it’s something one can be proud to be South African. And also South Africans of Indian origin belonging to the Islamic faith or Muslim faith. Have to be proud of that.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor, when you look at young people like this you know sacrificing their holidays you know and uh wanting to produce a book. And coming to you and getting your story as part of the Vaal Hearings, that’s the title we’ve given it. Did you feel… explain your feelings? Because you must be thinking it cannot be real you know, I never dreamt about this when fighting the struggle.
Dr.: You know I’m quite proud that there’s an awakening amongst our young people. You know that there’s a history or that past which they can be proud of. This must never be lost. And the young people doing this makes me very happy. You know that this is… whatever we did was not in vain. You know it’s going to inspire young people and bring about a society which is far better than we ever thought was possible.
Mr. Sujee: Now you see as a teacher when I talk to these people about Apartheid. Believe me, they tell me sir you’re lying. There wasn’t a que that said whites only. Can you elaborate on that? Because I want it to come from people like yourself because you actually seen it. You’ve witnessed it you know.
Dr.: You see those days you could only go to an Indian school. If you travelled in trams in Johannesburgh, eight portions of the trams was reserved for non whites. And some of the trams the you know eight portions were open so in raining weather the Whites have the priviledge of sitting you know in the shaded… covered portion and you’d sit there. You could not go to use any library. You could not go to any museum. You could not go to any cinema, that was not planned for you, for example if you were an Indian, you could only go to an Indian cinema. Plays that were performed were out of bounce for you and that was it. If you travelled also, in the plane certain seats were reserved for Blacks in South African planes. Trains too, there were separate coaches for Blacks and Whites. So you know everything… and to enter the Post Office you had to enter a separate Post Office. In the area I lived there was a bank called Volkskas bank. There were two entrances, one for Whites and one for Blacks. In the Post Office too, you had a separate counter. And that was it. And of course you couldn’t lived where you liked. You know what they called Group Areas. You know people were confined to an African area, coloured area, or a White area. South Africa was divided in eveything. And then there were loss of opportunities. You couldn’t go to any university. In fact, I was part of a quota system at university. Of the two hundred or more entries into the first year, there was a quota of twelve for so called non Whites. And that would mean Chinese, Coloured, Indians… and Indian. So you had to compete to get in. Wits the only available university. They of course accepted universities for Afrikaaners into an Afrikaans university, Pretoria university, Stellenbosch. All white, you couldn’t go to. Of course years later they did develop an Indian university in Durban. That was the whole set up. You haven’t been… you very lucky you haven’t been through that phase. My daughter and then one day we were gone to the Zoo Lake, we were driving past, there’s a small little playing field here. So they said stop we want to go on to the swings. So I said it’s only for Whites and they said but we not Black. It’s just around the corner we were in the area, but couldn’t go play on the swings.
Mr. Sujee: Doctor Insha-Allah what we hope now is that you can use this as an inspiration to make us meet Mandela. Just to tell him you know that we appreciate your effort because it hasn’t been wasted.
Dr.: What I’m going to suggest is. I want you to send a fax because uh to his secretary Zelda LeGrange. I’ve got the phone number and send uh say the project, you’d like to interview him. See what happens. It should be done by fax hey, send a fax. I’ll give you the number. Not for now. It’s a bit difficult to get hold of him now. He doesn’t see many people but we can make an attempt. He’s quite old now.
(Talking)
Mr. Sujee: Probably just forward it to Desmond Tutu as well.
Dr.: that wouldn’t be so difficult.
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